Do you think the reason we don't see many low cost, high fun vehicles like the FR-S/BRZ, is the fact that low cost sports cars have some of the highest costs to insure? Therefore, would price themselves out of their own segment/target consumer when insurance costs are incorporated? If that made any sense.
what does insurance run for a ferarri lol
most of the time low cost sports cars have insurance rates is due to the fact that the people driving them are younger, male, and most likely an accident or two under their belt
05' STi
Team Scoobie Member
Exactly, so if you're in the market for a car around 25k. You have a few options.. However, since you're in your early 20s, the addition of excessive insurance pushes this car out of reach payment-wise, and you settle for something less-sporty to better suit the pocket book. I'm just wondering if car companies realize this, and that's why cheap-thrills options are few and far between. Since they quickly become impractical for their younger target audience.
I work in auto insurance.
Insurance won't be that much. It is not a high powered car. Even if it has 220 boosted HP, cars like the v6 mustang and camaro greatly eclipse it. Hell the new Civic Si has more HP. Plus those who want a lower insurance premium will either get meh providers or high deducts.
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Originally Posted by modifiedMR
Naw, "bang for the buck" as in performance. I'd ratherthan
and need a shot of penicillin.
Any idea what it would be for the majority of us buyers (22-30 yrs old)?
91 hardtop mr2 turbo
i think at 25 it massively drops so
05' STi
Team Scoobie Member
I'll be 27 soon, but still have a 104 mph ticket on my "E" class license. Don't know if the chauffeurs license helps or not. I know the 104 doesn't!
91 hardtop mr2 turbo
Impossible to say. Rates are determined based on driver history, single/married, area you live in, credit history, and tons more.
Team Scoobie Member
Naw, "bang for the buck" as in performance. I'd rather
Driver history = very bad (104 in a 60, yep). Single. Middle of f'n nowhere. I owe next to nothing. I don't have a ton of anything.LOL
91 hardtop mr2 turbo
A quick and dirty way to check is go to progressive or geico web site and run a quick quote. Use top 2011 Mistu Eclipse as your veh. Since you have a major (speeding 104 in 60 zone), just double the prem on Liab and Coll cov and that is approx rate for you if it does not ask your driving record.Driver history = very bad (104 in a 60, yep). Single. Middle of f'n nowhere. I owe next to nothing. I don't have a ton of anything.
I'll second what Cal wrote: I do not work in insurance, but I did converse with a few people who do. Assuming MSRP, cost of ownership, and power are all low, insurance shouldn't be too bad compared to most sports and muscle cars.
On a side note, there was a tangential-to-the-topic discussion about insurance ramifications of it being branded as a Scion rather than Toyota. Everyone I consulted except for one person said that's a non-issue. And when asked, that person was unable to say how much of a difference in insurance cost we might expect due to branding alone... so even if there is a difference, it seems like it'll be too small to be concerned about (assuming MSRP and other factors are equal).
I have clear driving history. living in SoCal. and age 25-30. what's the range for the rate?
Out of my area.
The best way is to use progressive's multi-insurance thing.
Sidenote: I don't work for progressive.
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Naw, "bang for the buck" as in performance. I'd rather
main cost of insurance in north america is claims
therefore, how often a given car gets into an accident in your region and how often the victims of these accidents (small or large) file for claims (health coverage, liability, loss of work, etc) will determine the cost of insurance.
Fixing cars is cheap, even if you crash a Porsche the repair bill will be negligible to what someone might sue for in court for whatever silly reason they desire.
That's why seemingly shitty cars that you see everywhere on the street have high insurance premiums, because the owners of those cars tend to not only get into more accidents per user than another car, but will also sue/file large claims along side of it.
I suspect this car will not see any exuberant insurance coverage, at least for the first few years
but if all the FRS/BRZ/FT86 owners start crashing these things and getting into serious accidents where the other drivers sue them, then the collective insurance rate on us will go up.
This is why my buddy who drives an AUDI A4 pays like 800 dollars less than i do on my Subaru RS, because it seems the RS is a) stolen often b) crashed often c) lots of claims filed against subaru owners, even though i have a flawless drivers record for the last 11 years.
Hi 7thgear,
Sorry, sounds like you have bad credit score to me.
Anyway, Progressive multi rater will not work because the BRZ/FRS vehicle symbol is not out yet. So, as I posted before, the vehicle with closest rating character is EVO. Go to Progressive or GEICO and plug in your info (and be honest) and select 2012 EVO as your vehicle. You will get a good idea of what your insurance going to be.
and you know i have a bad credit score how? LOL
i'm saying what my insurance broker tells me, a lady who has known my mother for the last 30 years and been helping me find cheap insurance rates ever since i got behind the wheel. I'm currently paying as little as a person in my position driving X car can get without ending up with some of the shady insurers.
a car's initial rating depends on its collision/claims volatility in your area, period.
your own driving history only factors in if you have a drivers history worth mentioning, if you're a clean driver you get the top rates.
Last edited by 7thgear; 12-22-2011 at 11:05 AM.
Given that all the ins company uses credit score to rate up your premium these day. The 3 major items can effect your premium (given both of you have same coverages) are
1) Driving record. Any at fault incident or more than 1 violation will send you over.
2) Age. there is a major drop when you turn 25.
3) Credit score. Better the credit score you have give you lower rate.
Vehicle plays a lot less on the final premium these day.
Please believe me on this. If you don't please look up what Actuary do in a insurance company.
yes, i'm not denying that these factors can affect your insurance post fact.
but, the original question of this thread was "is insurance the reason why we haven't seen these cars in production sooner"
and the answer to that is NO, because high insurance rates are a by-product of consumer usage spread over time, after a car enters the market.
The insurance i would pay on a Porsche 911 will be only slightly more than what i pay for my Subaru (if at all). And could very well be LOWER than if i go out and get myself a 96-2001 Civic. Does this mean that a Civic is sportier than a Porsche? No.
Furthermore, the reasons behind why we have seen a general decline in "fun sporty cars" has more to do with a plethora of other reasons and little to do with insurance.
Take the RX7 for instance, it was a money losing car for Mazda because they had to replace blown engines under warranty. Silly north-americans drove it on low octane gas and changed oil once-a-never, then complained when it went BOOM on them.
Last edited by 7thgear; 12-22-2011 at 11:43 AM.
Hi 7thgear,
To your question and back to the first post question. The answer is, insurance premium has very little effect on the production of fun lower price sports car. This is what insurance company found.
1) Honda Civic Si. Ins premium is high and yet young people still buying it like crazy.
2) Mitsu EVO is in the same situation
3) Subie WRX same
See the picture here? These are some of the fun "Sportier" car out there around $25000 range.
If you live in CA and if you are under 25 and still live with your parents and asking your parents to buy you a sports car and pay for your insurance. If your parent can do so, you would have ask for something like Lexus IS or a Nissan Z or may be a Audy S4 or a BMW 3 ser. Why? Your parents have enough money and spoil you. $10K is not really a problem if you keep crying with real tear and bug the crap out of them.
For other 99% of population, either we make our own money or parents do. 10K is a big deal. So a civic or corolla is more practical. It is auto comp make the decision what to build and can make profit. Insurance do not have major effect.
If you sell FRZ/BRZ at $25K level and insurance is $2K per year, and still sell out, car comp will build them like crazy. If you build a car that is $10K and ins is $500 a year and don't sell (smart for2) no company will build it.
i dont understand your hostility, you think i'm a teenager living with my parents? And i live as far away from California geographically as possible (well, almost).
Also, the whole living with parents or alone thing is a non factor. Only if you are a "secondary driver" listed under a car do you get a discount. My brother, who still lives with our parents is paying through the nose on his insurance for our old and tired VW Golf (4 door, 2 liter, vroom vroom). He has a clean driving record and no problems with the bank. He is under 25 and lives in a municipality that statistically has higher insurance rates, and because it's just that type of car.
When my dad got that VW in 2000, he paid little insurance on it, and when i started driving it full time around 2005, i also paid little insurance on it even though i fit the criteria of a high insurance bracket. Because it was still a "new car" back then.
When i gave the car over to my brother in 2009, i was paying more insurance on it even though my "categories" have improved (age, martial status, driver history, etc)
In fact, mathematically, my brother was paying nearly twice the rate that i did at his age many moons ago. Because the VW is now a "shitty" car, it's cheap, there are a lot of them, and many people buy them. Which means they crash more often per population per time unit, and file more claims.
Those cars that you mentioned did not start out with high insurance rates, they ended up with high insurance rates because the people who drive them end up in accidents of one form or another.
Find a Porsche driver who's never been in an accident and ask them what they were paying for their car 10 years ago.
Furthermore, car manufacturers don't have influence over insurance rates (well they do, sorta, through crash rating, but that's independent studies). You said "If you sell FRZ/BRZ at $25K level and insurance is $2K per year, and still sell out, car comp will build them like crazy." What does that even mean? How much the car costs initially will have a small impact on its insurance premium, even in the long run.
The point, again, is that just because a car that is affordable and considered sporty will not mean that you'll be paying a lot of insurance for it when it comes out.
however, it may very well have it's insurance adjusted within a year or even the first few months if people start crashing them left right and center like they do with the civics, mitsus and subaru's.
EDIT: cavaliers, focuses, caravans, and any other affordable car that gets into the hands of people who don't take care of their property and drive with blindfolds on then suing everyone they can, including the concrete barrier and lamp post they hit, when they get into an accident.
Dear 7thgear,
1) I have no hostility toward you. I am merely point out an example. In your first post, there were not enough info to know why your rs is $800 more than A4 of your friend. The only logic explanation and most people do not know is that credit score difference. I assume you 2 have everything else the same. You LOL, and I think it is cool.
2) My 2nd post to you is in response to you question and I am fine and glad you agree with me that the insurance is not hindering the timing of the vehicle.
3) However, you brought up more examples I feel it could be applicable but not a really good example. Given I do not know what exactly your location, driving record and other insurance related info, I do not feel your example for 911 vs RS is a good example. I feel the 3 examples I provided in same pricing bracket is more appropriate. Regarding my example of young consumer who is gravitating toward a veh like FRS/BRZ, it is an example and please note that in my post I said "If You" not "You are". I am using an extreme example (ie 1% vs 99% and poke fun of the OWS movement) If my post make you feel that way, I am sorry to cause any misunderstanding.
I work in an industry require very specific data and proof to set rate. In your examples, they are just too general and often time base on perception, not hard facts.
FYI, for your example, the insurance cost goes up because my guess is that insurance company use both of you as driver for the VW. Or your brother has worse driving record that you. Please note, the increase is not due to more VW on the road or more crashing. Either way, the risk increase. For your comment in post #20 about the insurance rate for the 3 cars i mentioned, yes, the claim experience is higher and that is why they have higher cost of insurance and premium. I agree with you. However, for the Porsche driver, given it is the same car from 10 years ago and he is now 45 yr old and everything else is the same. I expect his rate has decrease because there is more history, and older driver under 55 usually are less risky. For car company, they would love to have say in the insurance rate if they can. Because it helps them sale car. They tries to influence the insurance comp by making car safer and that is a good advertisement for risk adverse buyer.
However, in your post #21, I can not agree on. Why? because when a brand new model just come out with no history and experience, insurance industry use car with similar characteristics such as price, engine size, hp/torque, weight and safety features etc to come up with a vehicle that is very close to the new car. Here is the example I can tell you. FRS/BRZ stated value is $25K, engine size 2.0L with 200HP and 150 ft-lb torque and it is a coupe. This has spec close to Honda Si coupe. Ins comp will use the Si veh symbol for FRS/BRZ. Why I use Evo before, that will be the max insurance rate.
Please not that I have almost 20 years experience in insurance industry. You are guessing and using extreme example that is out of norm.
Merry Christmas.
I agree and cosigned with everything that silentheart has said.
When I said use the progressive thing, I didn't mean for the brz, I thought you were asking in general.
I would recommend, the Genesis as well as a comparable vehicle for right now.
Team Scoobie Member
Naw, "bang for the buck" as in performance. I'd rather
Maybe our laws are drastically different north of the border. Insurance is 100% government regulated.
you won't find any mention of credit ratings in here, and why would it matter anyway. Here you pay for insurance up-front, usually monthly. If you don't pay, your insurance is void the instant the new month is out. Insurance companies here in Canada will never have a reason to chase after anyone for money.
How Car Insurance Premiums are Calculated
CLEAR - Canadian Loss Experience Automobile Rating
here, i'll quote some noteworthy things
"CLEAR = Canadian Loss Experience Automobile Rating"
Before CLEAR (old way of rating cars)
"insurers had only the manufacturer’s suggested retail price (MSRP) and some very basic information about vehicle damageability and repairability to assess the type of car when determining premiums."
"That is, vehicles with similar MSRPs would be classified into the same rate group and result in equivalent insurance premiums. Generally, the greater a vehicle’s MSRP, the higher the premium charged."
sounds like what you guys are talking about.
With CLEAR (since 1995)
"CLEAR allows vehicle insurers to predict future claims more accurately and fairly and reward vehicle owners for buying vehicles that experience fewer claims and smaller losses."
"By rewarding consumers for buying vehicles that are less likely to incur insurance losses, the CLEAR system also serves to encourage manufacturers to build vehicles that are safer, less expensive to repair, and less likely to be stolen."
this is why i keep saying that the most important factor (in Canada) for what a car's initial premiums will be is based on whether a car will "incur insurance losses."
How about this, once this car hits the market, everyone post back a scanned copy of your insurance certificate if you actually end up getting the car, and we'll compare.
Now we know you live in the 51st state (sorry for the bad joke). Then I can comment more on this subject. This is a general idea, not specific to what Canadian gov and actuaries use.
Old way - When a new model comes out, it is rated based on "Stated Value" - the value of the veh when new or what owner paid. This will help to determine the optional coverage such as Coll and Comp. The Liability coverage will just base on the average experience of the company loss.
CLEAR - A car is rated based on the experience to predict the risk of future accident and loss. So, just like you said, it is a way for gov to push car maker to build safer car. But when a new model like FRS/BRZ comes out, insurance company will use similar veh as a starting point.
Anyway, Progressive has figure out the Credit Score is a very powerful predictive variable for future accident. So powerful that it surpassed many of the variables. Yes, it does not make sense for most of people why credit score makes difference. But in most of US states where credit score is used, it makes insurance premium fairer. ie, If I can tell you that you will get into 1 accident in the next 5 year that cost ins comp $4500 in total, and I charge you $995 a yr by using credit score. Or I know the group of people like you without using credit score and some one with bad credit drive same car as you do and average experience is $6000 per 5 year per person, and I charge you $1320 a year. Which is fairer for you? Do you really want to pay for extra so the other take advantage of you?
I am very glad that we have more understanding of each other now.
Merry Christmas and wish you all a great year with new car ahead.
Didnt know you lived in the great north. I would love to visit one day.
Team Scoobie Member
Naw, "bang for the buck" as in performance. I'd rather
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