What cars compete with the Toyobaru?

[dr0]

Hi. New guy. First post. Found the site via Google advanced search.

I told a friend a while back about my criteria for a basic cool car: two door, RWD, decent motor and a stick.

Now the friend is looking for a car, and while agreeing with my criteria seems to be tempted by hot(ish) FWD stuff. I owned a V6 GTI and my belief is somewhere around 200HP the FWD just isn't the right technology in a small car. (OK, different equation in a 6,000 lb Cadillac DTS or something).

So, the Toyobaru fits my criteria nicely, and I'm interested. I'm driving a 15 year old Toyota truck, bought new, that has been a great vehicle. I'm a fan of the brand.

And, to take the closest competitor, the Nissan Z seems like a proven, fast package with a lot more more than the Suburu Boxer on it's very best day ever ... might the Toyoburu be a bit anemic in the end? Many people here talk about the Celica, but the last Celica I remember was just another FWD Toy with a nicer-than-average body.

The MR2 was a weird science project thing (drove one, it was fun) .. but the last real Toyota sports car I remember was a friends Supra circa 1985 or so. Now that thing was a beast! I don't see the Subuyota living up to this legacy, even with a turbo, and I'm not sure it will even pull even with the Z-car.

Why are you interested in this car, and how do you see it having advantages over it's main competitors.

This car is interesting, especially if they manage to keep the price to the low $20,000s. If you start pushing $30K there are some other options: the Z-370 lists at $32K and it's got a 320HP motor in it. The Mustang GT starts at $29K and has a 400HP V8. The Dodge Challenger is the size of a Crown Vic, so it's not really appealing, but the new Camaro looks reasonable, and the SS has 425hp, again low $30s.

All of these you pay a MPG penalty. Other than that the only cars I could think of were the Miata (don't like convertables & too dinky) and probably some BMW which is overpriced.

Are there others I'm missing? What cars do you think will compare with this. (Obviously there are many hot hatches in FWD - but sticking to RWD you get a much shorter list.)

[Ethanislame]

If your only looking to buy brand new your options are very limited. Id say Hyundai Genesis is the only thing you didn't mention. I know people are pretty divided when it comes to the subject on whether or not Hyundai is cool or whatever but the Genesis its self is pretty cool I think. And at the very least its an option you may want to look at.

Im not a huge fan of any of the higher end brands really, so i may have missed something from BMW, Mercedes or something that may or may not be offered at this point in time.

[Exitspeed]

Honestly the only car that is a complete direct competitor, in the same class, on the market is the Gen Coupe 4cl turbo. Period.

[West]

Scion has communicated they want the FT-86 to compete with the Z, Mustang, Camaro. Its funny to hear, but possible even at a lower price point. Each car offers a different dish, so its really what type of sports car you are looking for.

The FT86 will be less powerful, but extremely nimble. If you are like me, weight rules most other factors in the RWD offering. The Boxer motor will provide benefits to handeling since they have specifically set the engine as low and far back as possible. It will make for an overall lower center of gravity. People are going to be amazed with its handeling. Want high power, well you might have to add that yourself...

The Mustang offer gobs of power but the overall feeling will be heavier. Although in terms of track time that is not always a bad thing.The latest gen Mustang has proven its worth in all almost all performance tests, its quite a deal. If you like drag racing and going fast off the line get something like the Mustang.

IMO, the Genesis isn't an option, I havent got a warm and fuzzy from enough people to sway my opinion.

You cant go wrong with a Z.

But still get the FT86!

[ej25ti]

I was gonna say genesis but u guys beat me to it lol
and if scion things this is gonna play with the mustang camaro and Z they better think again lol, or start looking at boost options
btw welcome to the forum lol

[HakosukaBunta]

And, to take the closest competitor, the Nissan Z seems like a proven, fast package with a lot more more than the Suburu Boxer on it's very best day ever ...

I don't see the Subuyota living up to this legacy, even with a turbo, and
I'm not sure it will even pull even with the Z-car.

Why are you interested in this car, and how do you see it having advantages over it's main competitors

Many people here talk about the Celica, but the last Celica I remember was just another FWD Toy with a nicer-than-average body.

Comparing apples to oranges but if you want to make that statement then, how many Z's have you ever seen pass an sti on a road course? Even with twin turbo? With the average Joe's budget, it is easier to squeeze power from a wrx or sti EJ than the VQ35/37DE. Tuning potential my friend. If Time Attack numbers set from a boxer motor in Japan and the US aren't proof enough then, I don't know what is... Not trying to bash as the S30Z and Z34 are on my all time favorites list! Just give me one with an RB26 and I would be set!

If your referring to the AE86's legacy, it wasn't famed for its power but the pure driving experience.

Celica FWD toy? Sad to hear that because the Celica's roots run much deeper. Ever heard of the GT-4 or allTrac turbo? AWD turbo rally monster!


Welcome to the boards and great post... Everybody is entitled to their opinion but, if your concerned about numbers than this car may not be something to look into. I say best wait and see what this car will bring to the table.

[ryun84]

A RWD, lightweight, 2+2, under $25K (hopefully) coupe? Nothing.

[ej25ti]

A RWD, lightweight, 2+2, under $25K (hopefully) coupe? Nothing.

2.0T Genesis Coupe

[ZDan]

2.0T Genesis Coupe

is not lightweight...

[Cal]

is not lightweight...

You have to think in 2010 weight not 97. The cars weigh: 3389 lb for the V6 and 3294 lb for the 4-cylinder.

Mustang v6 weighs 34XX and the camaro close to that.

[ZDan]

You have to think in 2010 weight not 97. The cars weigh: 3389 lb for the V6 and 3294 lb for the 4-cylinder.

Mustang v6 weighs 34XX and the camaro close to that.

The Camaro is more like 3800 lb. Stupid heavy.

But they're all pigs.

FT should come in at ~2800 lb., the Gen coupe is significantly heavier than that.

[ej25ti]

3200 actually isn't that much IMO
and cal's right in 2010 weight
with all the necessities that cars must have these days, especially safety features like a million airbags, the avg weight has gone way up
the only way to stay light is to use the more expensive light weight parts, but going down the Lotus route will of course raise the price
also, the car is not a miata, it's a 2+2 if ya dont want the rear seats, then you probably should buy an mx-5

[dr0]

Comparing apples to oranges but if you want to make that statement then, how many Z's have you ever seen pass an sti on a road course? Even with twin turbo? With the average Joe's budget, it is easier to squeeze power from a wrx or sti EJ than the VQ35/37DE. Tuning potential my friend. If Time Attack numbers set from a boxer motor in Japan and the US aren't proof enough then, I don't know what is... Not trying to bash as the S30Z and Z34 are on my all time favorites list! Just give me one with an RB26 and I would be set!

If your referring to the AE86's legacy, it wasn't famed for its power but the pure driving experience.

Celica FWD toy? Sad to hear that because the Celica's roots run much deeper. Ever heard of the GT-4 or allTrac turbo? AWD turbo rally monster!

Welcome to the boards and great post... Everybody is entitled to their opinion but, if your concerned about numbers than this car may not be something to look into. I say best wait and see what this car will bring to the table.

There is a WHOLE lot I don't know about this subject. I used to really keep up on cars, read Road & Track. I grew up in Detroit in the 1970s so I have many fond memories of some of the classic Detroit iron of that era. I kinda kept my head into cars until about 1990 - since then it's been motorcycles and other things altogether. So sadly I don't have any knowledge of the GT-4, will have to admit I've never seen an 'sti' on a road course at all, and off hand am not even sure what most of the other letter/number combos mean. (The last time I spent time at the track was at the Porsche Club of America again way back in the day. The 914/6s had the best track times, but tended to spin with some frequency).

Like I said, I have a lot to learn. It would be easy for me to just say "the Mustang has a V8 so it rules" as many of my buds seem to (I'm 53) but I do see some very cool looking cars around.

What about AWD vs RWD. RWD has always seemed like more a performance setup to me, but at some point I think the Diablo got 4wd, and Porsche has made a bunch of AWD cars. My mom has an Audi with AWD that drives very nicely. u

[ZDan]

Look fellas, nothing you say is going to make me agree that 3300 lb. is "lightweight" for a smallish 4-cylinder 2+2 coupe. It isn't.

Cars CAN be designed to be lighterweight with existing technology, it's just that big dumb heavy American consumers prefer big, dumb heavy cars, so that's what we get.

Miata is a great car and is reasonably lightweight while meeting safety standards and not costing terribly much. It's 2500 lb. Add 300 lb. for 2+2ness and you're at 2800 lb., about where I expect the FT will wind up. That's reasonably light. The 3300/3400 lb. Gen coupe isn't.

[ej25ti]

Look fellas, nothing you say is going to make me agree that 3300 lb. is "lightweight" for a smallish 4-cylinder 2+2 coupe. It isn't.

Cars CAN be designed to be lighterweight with existing technology, it's just that big dumb heavy American consumers prefer big, dumb heavy cars, so that's what we get.

Miata is a great car and is reasonably lightweight while meeting safety standards and not costing terribly much. It's 2500 lb. Add 300 lb. for 2+2ness and you're at 2800 lb., about where I expect the FT will wind up. That's reasonably light. The 3300/3400 lb. Gen coupe isn't.

it would probably be more than 300lb, it's not just the seats adding weight, there is no way a car the length of the miata could fit two more seats, the whole length of the car would need to be extended

i dont really see anyway to achieve 2800lb in a 2+2 without using super expensive lighter-weight parts
again only IMO

[ZDan]

it would probably be more than 300lb, it's not just the seats adding weight,

The rear seats themselves weigh next to nothing.

there is no way a car the length of the miata could fit two more seats, the whole length of the car would need to be extended

Of course. That's where the weight comes from, the 2+2 car has to be bigger.

i dont really see anyway to achieve 2800lb in a 2+2 without using super expensive lighter-weight parts
again only IMO

Everybody always throws out how exotic parts must be used to create lightweight cars, but in the design stage you can save a lot of weight IF you make efforts to keep the car small and IF lightweight is made a major priority from the get-go. Which Toyota/Subaru have (I think/hope).

Have a look at this pic I just found:


FT should end up closer to Miata weight than Genesis Coupe weight.

That car was a major disappointment for me, btw. They should have copied a 240SX instead of a G35...

[dr0]

Wow, that's a great post. Thanks. Yes, light weight is a good thing in a sports car. You really get this from riding motorcycles. The "modern" sportsbike movement began when Honda made a 900cc that was 100lbs less thant the competing monsters of the day like the GSX-R 1100. It's been all about low weight ever since then.

How about the Lotus? The Elise R has a curb weight of only 2010 lbs!
Lotus Cars - Lotus Elise Specification

[Rival M]

I'll tell you why I'm interested in this car.

I had a twin turbo Z32 for a while, and it was great, but the problem was it was too fast. You could run out of room real quick. It's also too heavy.

I now have a Cobalt SS supercharged that I've owned since new. It's fun and has a couple mods, but that's too much damn power through the front wheels.

I'm getting to the age where I don't want something superfast or super powerful. I want something that handles well, has decent mileage, and decent acceleration. I told a friend of mine a few years ago, "Hey, I wish someone had a small coupe with around 220 hp, rwd, and a <3,000 lb curb weight. Wouldn't that be great? Something like the old 240SX with the Red Top engine in it."

He had an 86 Z turbo with a boost controller and he agreed. It would rule.

When I first heard about the FT-86 I was so excited I almost peed my pants. All the other competitors named above are too heavy, suck too much fuel and cost too much.

If Toyota can pull this off they will have my business, because this seems like the most perfect toy car ever.

[ej25ti]

I'll tell you why I'm interested in this car.

I had a twin turbo Z32 for a while, and it was great, but the problem was it was too fast. You could run out of room real quick. It's also too heavy.

I now have a Cobalt SS supercharged that I've owned since new. It's fun and has a couple mods, but that's too much damn power through the front wheels.

I'm getting to the age where I don't want something superfast or super powerful. I want something that handles well, has decent mileage, and decent acceleration. I told a friend of mine a few years ago, "Hey, I wish someone had a small coupe with around 220 hp, rwd, and a <3,000 lb curb weight. Wouldn't that be great? Something like the old 240SX with the Red Top engine in it."

He had an 86 Z turbo with a boost controller and he agreed. It would rule.

When I first heard about the FT-86 I was so excited I almost peed my pants. All the other competitors named above are too heavy, suck too much fuel and cost too much.

If Toyota can pull this off they will have my business, because this seems like the most perfect toy car ever.

yea
personally im lookin for more power though
nothing less than my STi has now

[Cal]

I would be happy with 200rwhp at this point in my life. Stock 240's are slow as balls.

I am still excited at what the twin cars do to the market. With the genesis 2.0, these two cars, that will be three cheap turbo cars to choose from (pending suby version not being sti priced) I hope that pushes Nissan, and Mazda to step up and build some competitors.

[Deslock]

3200 actually isn't that much IMO
and cal's right in 2010 weight
with all the necessities that cars must have these days, especially safety features like a million airbags, the avg weight has gone way up

Though safety regulations are responsible for some increased heft, consider these MY2011 cars:

Mazda2: 2306 pounds
Miata: 2480 pounds
Honda Fit: 2486 pounds
MCS: 2679 pounds

They are heavier than even tinier cars from 20-30 years ago, but they illustrate that cars are 3000+ pounds mostly because of increased vehicle size and engine output (which requires beefier components)

the only way to stay light is to use the more expensive light weight parts, but going down the Lotus route will of course raise the price

Given the FT's dimensions and relatively small engine, there is no reason it can't be 2700-2800 pounds even without expensive materials.

the car is not a miata, it's a 2+2 if ya dont want the rear seats, then you probably should buy an mx-5

Yes, the Miata is the way to go if you want something lightweight, RWD, and cheap. But it's not an option if you need more than 2 seats.

[whaap]

is not lightweight...

And it's too big. The FT 86 is closer in size to a Miata than it is to a Z car, genesis, mustang or pretty much any other present day coupe.

[modifiedMR]

to me, this car is somewhat like mut miata/s2000/240sx. it is underpowered stock, but great potential for many different driving types. it could be made to be a great fun daily (stock), autox, drift, drag or time attack car. the ft86 will handle great and that's the hardest part of dialing in a car. if the suspension sucks, then it's hard to fix. power from EJ engines isn't a hard thing to do. a ej25 shouldn't be hard to fit either. remember, honda sold alot of s2000's for more than the price of this car ($35,000). yes it was an open top car, but that'll probably come down the pike. this car will have more tq, so the power will come in sooner and probably faster down a drag strip.

regardless, here's the pro's for this car:
-light weight
-great handling and balance (great to toss around much like the ae86)
-enough power to have fun with alot of potential
-descent gas mileage (a mustang/Z makes what mpg?), atleast stock it will.
-rwd (who doesn't like a little slip and go?)
-great sleek looks (unless you like boring)

con's
-not as much power as some of the competitors, but remember it's power to weight ration that makes speed! more power = less mpg usually.
-small rear seating?
-aggressive styling (the original ae86 wasn't really aggressive), but is that a con for a sports car?
-doesn't have a 2.5L turbo out of the sti at least as an option and not awd for those bad weather/ terrain parts of the country. maybe these will be out later?

for me this car most resembles a 240sx, but more like the jdm silvia (240sx with a 2.0 Liter turbo engine with 200 bhp). this car should handle better and have all the support from previous subbie cars. it also has a 6 speed out of the sti which is pretty dang strong. also similar to the rx-8 (which i haven't seen referenced), but that car sucks anyway. lol. it would have been much better with a mazdaspeed 4 cylinder turbo over that crappy rotary.

[aerobert]

The image of a smaller, cheaper, lighter RWD sports car appeals to me. I like the japanese philosophy of the car being a driving experience. It's not all about looks, speed and attitude. It's about fun driving, the feeling, while being reasonably economic.

The car will also be a great base car for racing/drifting/tuners whatever. Lot's of potential here people.

[Turbowned]

I honestly can't understand why there is a segment gap for RWD sports cars under 25k... There are more than enough people crying out for them. Hopefully the FT-86/016a will spark that segment again and we'll see offerings from Nissan, Honda, and others in the future...

It's not that hard, OEM's! Take your compact, FWD car, hack off two doors, strengthen chassis, replace transaxle with transmission driving the rear wheels, charge a couple grand more, and voila! You have a recipe for driving success!

Look at the '85-89 MR2, for example. Granted $12,000 adjusted for inflation is about $30k these days, but for it you got a sub-2500lb, mid-engine, RWD sports car with just the basics that revved over 7,000rpm, 0-60'd in 8.6sec and got 30mpg. We could do it in the 80's, why not now?!

[ej25ti]

I honestly can't understand why there is a segment gap for RWD sports cars under 25k... There are more than enough people crying out for them. Hopefully the FT-86/016a will spark that segment again and we'll see offerings from Nissan, Honda, and others in the future...

It's not that hard, OEM's! Take your compact, FWD car, hack off two doors, strengthen chassis, replace transaxle with transmission driving the rear wheels, charge a couple grand more, and voila! You have a recipe for driving success!

Look at the '85-89 MR2, for example. Granted $12,000 adjusted for inflation is about $30k these days, but for it you got a sub-2500lb, mid-engine, RWD sports car with just the basics that revved over 7,000rpm, 0-60'd in 8.6sec and got 30mpg. We could do it in the 80's, why not now?!

agreed
interior also has to be modified though

[Cal]

I honestly can't understand why there is a segment gap for RWD sports cars under 25k... There are more than enough people crying out for them. Hopefully the FT-86/016a will spark that segment again and we'll see offerings from Nissan, Honda, and others in the future...

Because the people who buy cars the most don't want them. Looks at the list of the 10 best selling vehicles of 2010.

1. Ford F-Series pickups, including Super Duty, 528,349
2. Chevrolet Silverado, including Heavy Duty, 370,135
3. Toyota Camry, 327,804
4. Honda Accord / Accord Crosstour, 311,381
5. Toyota Corolla / Matrix, 266,082
6. Honda Civic / Civic Coupe / Civic Hybrid, 260,218
7. Nissan Altima / Altima Coupe, 229,263
8. Ford Fusion / Fusion Hybrid, 219,219
9. Honda CR-V, 203,714
10. Dodge Ram Pickup, including Heavy Duty, 199,652

Not a single one of those is really sporty. They are either trucks or econo cars for the most part. The mustang, camaro, genesis are all off the list. The car buying majority of America are people who want an auto car they can
stick the key in drive it, park it, take it to the dealer when something is wrong.

We are the minority, we want cars with performance, big turbos, high HP, tight handling. None of that matters to the above like to us.

Let's be honest, which would you rather make cars for, the majority or the minority?

[ej25ti]

practicality comes first
damn, that's a lot of F-150s though!!!

[Messiah]

Let's be honest, which would you rather make cars for, the majority or the minority?

Depends on what the goal is. If it's to make money and aim to provide value to a whole lot of people, I'd go with the former. However, if my passion was building a certain type of car that adheres to my standards of quality, speed, and fun, I'd go with the latter. I'm glad Toyota is making a solid attempt to hold itself to higher standards.

[Cal]

practicality comes first
damn, that's a lot of F-150s though!!!

Yeap

Depends on what the goal is. If it's to make money and aim to provide value to a whole lot of people, I'd go with the former. However, if my passion was building a certain type of car that adheres to my standards of quality, speed, and fun, I'd go with the latter. I'm glad Toyota is making a solid attempt to hold itself to higher standards.

Exactly why so few awesome cars.

I am with you though. I am glad Toyota and Subaru are going the way of Mitsubishi. I just wish Nissan and Mazda would get off their asses and slap a turbo on something small and fun. Imagine a market with an FR-S, Suby-what-the-hell-ever, new Silvia and RX-7. That would be so tits.