What cars compete with the Toyobaru?

[Cal]

Y'all can have that hardcore version. Auto windows and locks ftw.

[ej25ti]

yea im with Cal, if this is gonna be my daily, which it is, im gonna want these lol

[topcat]

but it would be cool if they could do a stripped out ClubSport version (like Porsche used to do), which costs less, or maybe the RenaultSport cars sold in Europe which have the option of the uprated "Cup" chassis, a few extra bhp, perspex side windows, radio and AC delete, but LSD, track day tyre, and roll cage on the inside; I also like the package concept used by Lotus, in which you can have the GT pack (road car), Comfort Pack (fat bastard version), Performance Pack (fast road), either individually or together.

[ZDan]

hiplaindrftr is right. PRICE is key here. if they get over 25k, a wrx looks like a better deal really. I mean, it's a 2.5L turbo and awd. More power and more useful.

It is also much heavier, has a much higher c.g., and craptastic 57/43 weight distribution. Lower c.g., 50/50 (or close to it ) weight distribution, and ~2800 lb. (less hopefully) is what appeals to me, even at 200hp vs. approaching 300 for the wrx for the same $$$. If the WRX is your bag, and more power/more utility/awd are big positives, then this car probably isn't for you.

The whole deal is that this car is to revive the AE86 passion. How can they do that with a car that's in the nissan Z's price range?

You do know that the AE86 was essentially a cheap economy car, right? Should be easy to make smaller, lighter-weight, less-powerful cars for a LOT less money than much more powerful and heavier 2-seat versions luxury sedans (which is what the 370Z is)!

TOYOTA!!!!>>>PLEASE GIVE US A STRIPPED DOWN 2.0 TURBO OPTION FOR 25K OR LESS!!!! i mean, manual windows, locks, a basic cd player and everything else, besides nice seats, can be minimal!

Fact is, power windows and locks don't cost (or weigh) much more than manual. It is highly likely that Toyota/Scion would include these in a "base" version of the hypthetical turbo FR-S, and they'll likely include them in the base non-turbo anyway.

I want performance and descent economy in a car that is rwd and handles. It's not like you designed everything specific to this car. anything else can be options! thank you.

I want the same thing you want. But any additional time/effort/money that Toyota spends developing manual windows for this car is IMO wasted. In the end they might save something on the order of $50 (probably less) vs. manual wind-ups as far as production costs. Probably not worth their effort just to be able to sell an artificially cheaper "base" version and an artificially more-expensive optioned version for such a low-volume car.

[modifiedMR]

Zdan> actaully, there is probably like over $50 per window more in cost for power. there are lots more parts in them (window motor, regulator, wiring and control panel) and time to install them. Manual windows are about 8 lbs lighter (weight), less parts and are also more durable. I know alot about the wrx. despite it's weight and figures, the performance #'s are going to be similar. that is what i'm into. I drive a modded mr2 turbo, so tell me about utility again? lol. I also know much about the ae86. If you sell a car in Z territory for price, it's not an affordable economy car anymore. that was my point.from the latest figures from scion said the car will be under 30k. if that is $29,500, then it is only a couple grand under the Z and mustang GT.

i'm not saying either toyota or subaru will do this because they don't want the car to be seen as a pos, but the reality is that this car is supposed to be the embodiment of the AE86. that said, having mininal equipment on base models, is right in line with that. the car will sell worldwide and development of manual windows isn't that pricey. in your opinion, it is a waste of time and money, but in mine it is not. I am able to live without any real luxuries in a car. My mr2 is proof of that (no AC, no ps and wished it had manual locks/windows). I can bet the car will sell like hotcakes at 23k without any options.

according to toyota, a yaris "power package" is $1920! this includes cruise control, larger window washer tank (w/ low level sensor), heavy duty starter, heavy duty heater, rear heater duct, 50 state emissions (aren't they already?), power windows, locks, ds mirror, color keyed mirrors, keyless entry and 15" steel wheels (over 14" steel wheels). I can do without these for 2 grand in my pocket! only things I would want from this would be the color keyed mirrors.

[ZDan]

Zdan> actaully, there is probably like over $50 per window more in cost for power. there are lots more parts in them (window motor, regulator, wiring and control panel) and time to install them.

I doubt it. But say it's $100 per, that's $200, essentially negligible compared to the price of the car. The *point* is that there isn't much REAL cost-savings vs. manual wind-ups as far as production costs go. Of course they include pw/pdl in "convenience" packages and charge 1000% markup, and let the majority of buyers who pay that subsidize super-low price for the few percent "base model" buyers, which for a high-volume car amounts to a fair amount of volume. It just doesn't make any sense to go to that effort for a lower-volume car like this. Very little $$$ to be saved in the scheme of things. And there is the additional design effort involved to make both electric and manual versions.

Manual windows are about 8 lbs lighter (weight), less parts and are also more durable.

Not necessarily true. Way back in ~'89 or so, the stripped, lighter-weight Porsche 911 RS America (had straps instead of door handles on the inside!) used the ELECTRIC windows instead of the manual ones they had available, because the electric windows were actually LIGHTER!
Again, IMO not worth the effort for weight savings (or lack thereof) either.

I know alot about the wrx. despite it's weight and figures, the performance #'s are going to be similar. that is what i'm into.

If you're into "numbers", again this probably isn't your car.

I drive a modded mr2 turbo, so tell me about utility again? lol.

YOU mentioned utility as a nod in the wrx direction, which it is.

I also know much about the ae86. If you sell a car in Z territory for price, it's not an affordable economy car anymore. that was my point.

Totally missed yer point there, sorry! Seems obvious now. But it sounded like you were saying that it would be difficult to build a car in teh AE86 spirit that would cost less than a Z. I see now that you *meant* that this car *wouldn't* be in the AE86 spirit at 370Z price level. I agree. But IMO it isn't *really* a modern AE86 (more below).

from the latest figures from scion said the car will be under 30k. if that is $29,500, then it is only a couple grand under the Z and mustang GT.

And if you're a strictly "performance numbers" guy, then the Z and Mustang will obviously appeal a lot more to you. Personally, I'd rather have a much smaller and lighter-weight car even if it's slower on paper. A Mustang GT is obviously a ton faster than a Miata, and doesn't cost any more, but I'd rather have a Miata.

i'm not saying either toyota or subaru will do this because they don't want the car to be seen as a pos, but the reality is that this car is supposed to be the embodiment of the AE86. that said, having mininal equipment on base models, is right in line with that.

They keep insisting on that, but to me it is MUCH closer to an early/mid-80s Celica. A rear-drive Yaris would be closer to an AE86. And I'd be all for them building that too!

the car will sell worldwide and development of manual windows isn't that pricey. in your opinion, it is a waste of time and money, but in mine it is not. I am able to live without any real luxuries in a car. My mr2 is proof of that (no AC, no ps and wished it had manual locks/windows). I can bet the car will sell like hotcakes at 23k without any options.

But IMO you are mistaken if you think that developing a model with those things removed would *really* result in a base price of $23k if the optioned version is at $29,500.

according to toyota, a yaris "power package" is $1920! this includes cruise control, larger window washer tank (w/ low level sensor), heavy duty starter, heavy duty heater, rear heater duct, 50 state emissions (aren't they already?), power windows, locks, ds mirror, color keyed mirrors, keyless entry and 15" steel wheels (over 14" steel wheels).

It's "only" $1670 on the 3-door... And of course all of that stuff doesn't add anything *like* $1670 to Toyota's cost to build! The strategy is to charge out the wazoo for them and 85% of car-buyers will pay it, in effect subsidizing the remaining 15% who need the absolute lowest price possible. For a high-volume economy car, this makes sense to offer manual windows/locks. But for a lower-volume car at a higher price-point, it doesn't. Which is why there isn't a Miata available with manual windows any more. Electrics have gotten smaller/cheaper/lighter to the point that it doesn't make sense to put them on lower-volume nichey vehicles.

[ej25ti]

u guys done yet lol?
dont make me fuckin lock this shit lol

[Cal]

Lol at the yaris package. What the hell does it need a heavy duty starter and heater for hahahaha?

u guys done yet lol?
dont make me fuckin lock this shit lol

Why lock it? It's not like they are bickering, just discussion.

[modifiedMR]

this car will not be that low of production. it is being sold WORLDWIDE. that said, i think it will sell more than you are giving it credit. yes, they are charging alot for the electronics, but no matter how you slice it, the power windows, locks, cruise (maybe power mirrors) will make the car lighter (not much, but it will 95% of the time), be cheaper (you cannot say that it won't be a minimum of ~$500) AND less things to break. ever try buying even used parts to switch from manual to power? there are more parts than you think. manual windows are very simple comparatively. point of my whole argument is that they are trying to add more and more to a car that was originally supposed to be affordable. it's becoming less affordable for many. i am not looking for a utility vehicle, but many people will shy away from this car when they can have as much fun in a vehicle with more utility. example, the lotus elise is fast and fun, but how many people ride in one and then look into the competition and think? well, i can't get my golf clubs in here. lol. there also is not any talking down at scion dealerships. the price is just that.

base model camry 2.5L I4 w/auto $20,800
xle camry 2.5L I4 w/ auto 26,300

^there's 5,500 for the same basic car. that's huge! options cost more than you'd think. do i need to find more info? i mean, it seems like you think the price won't be reduced substantially from not having a higher end stereo (200 watts is fine), power windows, power locks, power mirrors, etc. these can all be options, but i don't need them. i'd rather not buy them, especially if it can make the car cost even $1500 less. it would probably be more like $2000. i work hard for my $ and i'd rather not have to pull out a bunch of stuff i paid for. lol. can't really even swap power windows if there wasn't any base model. it wouldn't hurt to have a base in the 22k range and then end up being 26-28k or so with all options.

i know toyota/subaru won't do this because they want this car to be above a tC. They do not want it to look like it's a pos with all manual parts. they want to tout all the features and specs, but they are more things to break. only thing i want to have to worry about is overboosting or breaking the driveshaft/axles! Even the base model impreza's have all kinds of options and cost less than 20k, so there isn't a chance of it getting basics, anyway.

[ZDan]

What I'm saying is that if those things are NOT options, they aren't adding *anything* like what they would add to the price of the car if they *were* options.

It'll go something like this: If the base car comes with pw/pdl, it'll go for, say, $25k (this is for reference only). If the base car comes with windup windows, it'll still go for close to $25k, and the option packaged version that includes pw/pdl would go for $27k.

But the point is moot because there's no way they're going to have a wind-up window manual locks version. But don't lose sleep over it, because it won't affect the price or weight much at all.

You can believe that keeping costs down is foremost in the automakers' minds. But power windows and door locks have evolved to the point that they just don't cost them that much more than manual, although if they do go to the trouble of having wind-up windows in a car, you can bet they will charge out the wazoo for the "power" option package.

That is all...

[Orthonormal]

The RX-8 is the only direct competition I can think of. Small 4-seat rear wheel drive car in the $20k-30k price range, similar power and weight (although I'm hoping that the Toyota is a lot lighter than the RX-8).

The Miata and S2000 crowd might cross shop the new Toyota, given that it's small and light and supposed to handle well. They might be willing to ignore the extra pair of seats, or perhaps they have just been waiting for a car with similar performance but with back seats. And some of them might even be willing to give up the drop top.

The Toyota is much smaller and lighter than the 370Z, Genesis, Mustang...and someone who is seriously looking at those cars is bound to be disappointed with the power specs for the Toyota.

The Rx-8 is disappointing in all categories. Its ugly, no power, terrible gas mileage, horrible unreliable engine. All in all a big bunch of fail sauce.

In order:

Ugly: It's not a great looking car, but there are plenty worse out there.

No power: It has more power than the FR-S is rumored to have. At its weight, 232HP is enough. Definitely needs to be revved to the redline though. Miatas are torque monsters by comparison.

Terrible gas mileage: Absolutely true. But probably the least relevant to its role as a sports car.

Horrible unreliable engine: ??? Perhaps you are thinking of the 3rd generation RX-7 engine? There were some early problems with flooding when the RX-8 first came out, but that didn't result in damage and it got resolved. Are there particular problems that you're aware of?

[ej25ti]

^^ The 370 is actually smaller than the rx8...
but I still like the rx8, at least a lot more than everyone else does lately
i actually dont think it's ugly, the rotaries are cool and lightweight... but still not really a seller for me, and while they redline at 9k, i cant handle the lack of torque... and with the mustang v6's gettin close to 30mpg...

[modifiedMR]

^^ The 370 is actually smaller than the rx8...
but I still like the rx8, at least a lot more than everyone else does lately
i actually dont think it's ugly, the rotaries are cool and lightweight... but still not really a seller for me, and while they redline at 9k, i cant handle the lack of torque... and with the mustang v6's gettin close to 30mpg...

the 370z is still a bit heavier, even though they are smaller.

Rotaries are not cool or lightweight. They are known to be troublesome and hard to work on. You can fit an aluminum chevy 350 into an rx-7 and still be about the same weight overall (including removing turbos, etc.)

Mazda RX-8 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the bottom of the wiki page, apparently Mazda is supposed to make a "rumored" 290 hp, lighter engined(now using some aluminum), larger displacement(1.6L) rx car. It supposedly will weight around 2800 lbs. If they can manage to get those specs and keep it in the price range of the ft-86, Toyota won't sell a whole lot of cars, IMO.

I like the idea of having a different type of engine, but IMO, a rotary isn't efficient or very reliable.

[ej25ti]

the 370z is still a bit heavier, even though they are smaller.

Rotaries are not cool or lightweight. They are known to be troublesome and hard to work on. You can fit an aluminum chevy 350 into an rx-7 and still be about the same weight overall (including removing turbos, etc.)

Mazda RX-8 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the bottom of the wiki page, apparently Mazda is supposed to make a "rumored" 290 hp, lighter engined(now using some aluminum), larger displacement(1.6L) rx car. It supposedly will weight around 2800 lbs. If they can manage to get those specs and keep it in the price range of the ft-86, Toyota won't sell a whole lot of cars, IMO.

I like the idea of having a different type of engine, but IMO, a rotary isn't efficient or very reliable.

cool is simply an opinion, and i was referring to the way that they work
i actually agreed that they were not reliable nor efficient...
and compared with most engines of similar bhp ratings, not torque, they are lighter weight

[Orthonormal]

^^ The 370 is actually smaller than the rx8...

The RX-8 is 8 inches longer, but 3 inches narrower and 200 pounds lighter according to the manufacturers' specified weights. The RX-8 seems so come in lighter than the specs, when people have weighed them for competition.

Another factor that separates the 370Z from the FR-S besides the weight and size is the lack of rear seats.

[ej25ti]

i guess as far as the smaller smaller size there really is no competition, but i really dont think the rear seats are gonna be thatttt functional anyway lol haha
like audi tt rear seats lol

[modifiedMR]

i guess as far as the smaller smaller size there really is no competition, but i really dont think the rear seats are gonna be thatttt functional anyway lol haha
like audi tt rear seats lol

yeah, but just having them means, if you have small kids, it is an option. So, for some, it makes a difference. I owned a 2000 celica gt and know all about small back seats. No good to ride in back and no good for.....

EJ>I get you on the "cool" factor, but sometimes different is not cool. for example, the mazdaspeed 3 has alot more power than the rx-8, yet still gets better mileage? not cool. lol. the engine in the 3 would rock in the rx-8. Some race teams swap that pos rotary for the 3's turbo engine.

My hope for this car is that they make their eco friendly version for the masses, but make an enthusiast model (read turbo) for us hardcore folks. The AE86 in japan got 130 hp and 104 tq in a 2300-2400 lb car. Not fast, but wow was it light.

[ej25ti]

yeah, but just having them means, if you have small kids, it is an option. So, for some, it makes a difference. I owned a 2000 celica gt and know all about small back seats. No good to ride in back and no good for.....

EJ>I get you on the "cool" factor, but sometimes different is not cool. for example, the mazdaspeed 3 has alot more power than the rx-8, yet still gets better mileage? not cool. lol. the engine in the 3 would rock in the rx-8. Some race teams swap that pos rotary for the 3's turbo engine.

My hope for this car is that they make their eco friendly version for the masses, but make an enthusiast model (read turbo) for us hardcore folks. The AE86 in japan got 130 hp and 104 tq in a 2300-2400 lb car. Not fast, but wow was it light.

yea i would never want a rotary for my daily either lol
some race teams use the rotaries as well, I was at Formula Drift on Sat and all the RX8's in the show were rotary
im also hoping for a turbo model, it's easier to upgrade than to turbo altogether. i liked the 86's but half the reason they were so light back then was cuz they didnt need half the crap that all cars have to come with today, mostly safety precautions, and other features which used to be luxury items which are now simply standard on all vehicles

[Cal]

I wouldn't mind rocking a freshly rebuilt Rx-7 13b. Sooo hot. I just a thing against the Rx-8.

[modifiedMR]

. i liked the 86's but half the reason they were so light back then was cuz they didnt need half the crap that all cars have to come with today, mostly safety precautions, and other features which used to be luxury items which are now simply standard on all vehicles

yeah, like power options. ROFL! oh and cruise, airbags, etc. Many of which, I am trying to remove from my mr2 to save on weight. The cruise was easy 10 lbs right there. Was going to remove the AC, but it is for sale now.
I wonder if toyota is going to push this car to be uber lightweight and non-tunable, similar to the last gen celica's. I ditched mine to buy the mr2 because of the lack of potential. I'm hoping this car gets the beefed up parts like the STI. IIRC, the tranny is just a modified STI setup? That should be good. Also, I believe mrvito enlightened me to the r180 (?) and r200 (?) rear ends. I hope it gets the STI rear end for reliability, because mine will be boosted at some point, if I get one, regardless if they make a turbo model. It would be nice to have the longer gearing from a turbo model car, so that it might get some traction in turbo form.