The Government said You are Stupid, now what?

[hiplainsdrftr]

Please forgive me. I was ranting a bit last week. I feel like the government is attempting to take responsibility of a cars control away from the driver and put it into the hands of the manufacturers (typical pass the buck liability).

I'm planning on this car being my sports car. Something truly enjoyable to drive; that will take my inputs and like it, no matter what some engineer or politician thinks I want to or should be doing. I know that some people really want or need these things and I think they can be fine options. OPTIONS!!! In the back of my mind I'm thinking about the Nissan GTR and how it sort of "drives itself" according to some reviews.

I'm a bit concerned about and don't have much experience with modern technology that's getting put into cars. I'm referring to things like traction control, ABS, drive by wire throttles, etc.

Do you have any experience or insight related to any of that?

Can you still drift properly with ABS on a car? Can ABS be bypassed or is it now integrated into a traction control system?

Does hard acceleration, engine braking and shifting (up or down, heal and toe, etc) still work with 'drive by wire' throttles? Can drive by wire be converted to a cable type throttle or is it too integrated and we won't have an IACV? I've read about people looking like doofuses trying to match revs to shifts when a computer moves the throttle plate for them. I've read those cars just coast when the gas pedal isn't depressed instead of engine braking.

Do all traction and stability control systems have the ability to be disabled? Will oversteer and understeer always be corrected, even if I wanted to induce either?

Do you think this car will get stuck with some sort of electrical steering system? How will that affect the feel of controlling the car?

Will tire pressure monitoring systems prevent us from choosing our own wheel and tire upgrades? What happens when you're burning rubber and the heat makes the pressure rise?

Do you think the stripped/ track/ spec version will be available without any of the above mentioned technology?

[Cal]

I think it has to do more with the advancing of technology and the growth of human dependence on it.

A lot of those options are not mandated by any law, but people want and like that stuff so auto makers get to charge a premium for them.

[hiplainsdrftr]

Thanks for the reply Cal. I read that traction/ stability control along with some sort of mpg goals are being mandated by Gov't and that those shall affect some 90-100% of cars imported in 2012 for larger car companies (small starter companies are exempt for a while). I don't want my car to assume I don't know what I'm doing and to make corrections.

[hiplainsdrftr]

I certainly don't want to pay for any of this unwanted technology, but assume the costs of RnD will be part of the price of the car. I feel I want to disable or bypass it, but feer I won't be able to. So, now I need to get to acceptance and how it may or may not affect the all important "Feel" of driving. Have you tried any of the above technology?

[Cal]

Can't say I have. My car doesn't even have ABS. A lot of manufacturers allow you to turn those options off, some of then at least. Like the 370Z, it's rev match can be turned off.

I see what you are saying though. It's like the GTR compared to the Skyline R34.

[modifiedMR]

I want EBD. It is a smarter version of abs, but it would hurt drifting. It senses slippage when braking and then allows the wheel to travel some before reapplying the brake, instead of abs, where abs just puts on the brake and then blips it off for a second all the time without seeing if the tire is actually loosing traction. The 7th gen celica in japan got this tech. It works great for the track.

according to this, it will have these features (most likely)
Subaru Vehicle Safety

[Cal]

^ See some people like those features. That braking system above sounds awesome.

[modifiedMR]

^ See some people like those features. That braking system above sounds awesome.

yeah, the EBD has been around since about 2000 and it supposedly works really well. Combined with a lsd, this car should have some crazy handling prowess. I am hoping for .95g or better

[Cal]

yeah, the EBD has been around since about 2000 and it supposedly works really well. Combined with a lsd, this car should have some crazy handling prowess. I am hoping for .95g or better

Helical Diff would be awesome. Open diff reliability and lsd awesomesauce without the *clunk*clunk* of a beefy clutch diff.

[modifiedMR]

if you read at the bottom here:

Symmetrical All-Wheel Drive

it get's a torsen rear diff and a helical front diff. since this car is rwd, it probably will get a torsen diff, which is just a name brand of helical.

Locking rear diff - Page 3 - Ultimate Subaru Message Board

according to the wikipedia
Torsen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

the torsen is made by Gleason in the beginning. I work for machining company and we have a Gleason machine that makes gears. lol. It was built in '57 and works good today. It's crazy to see the difference between CNC and the old gear driven machines.

[hiplainsdrftr]

Cal - I searched a while to find a 240 without sunroof, without ABS, with 5 lug and with a 5 speed and I like what I got.

Modified MR - A quaife/ gleason diff would be great for a majority of driving situations IMO. I assume your lat. G number is based on the diff. and not EBD because there's no need for brakes on the skidpad right?

EBD seems nice for rainy days. Am I right in understanding it manipulates each brake individually (like a brake bias for all 4 corners)? Is EBD a feature that can be turned off with a button? How will this affect a pivot or trail braking?

Anyone - I'm still concerned after reading about electronic (drive by wire) throttles affecting my driving and potential for engine modifications. Does anyone have some experience to share?

Awesome! This site has Trogdor?!!

[modifiedMR]

dbw (drive-by wire) can be reconfigured on some cars, but toyota's cannot. Not sure about the subies, but some cars can be re-calibrated for performance or economy by making them faster to react or slower. technically they are supposed to ADD response over the wire, but I cannot see how.

i am assuming the car will have the diff as IIRC, scion said it would in the press release. I hope it is the Torsen that comes in the rear of the wrx/sti. I based my figures on having it. An mr2 is about as heavy as the fr-s and has same rear sized tires (assuming 225 R), but the mr2 has a 205 front tire (this comparison is for 93+ mr2 turbo's as the NA and earlier mr2's have smaller tires). the mr2 is able to get a .93-.94G. If the fr-s is more balanced, lower center of gravity, slightly more contact patch with a larger front tire, helical diff (IIRC the mr2 has an optional clutch type lsd) and about the same overall weight, it should out handle the mr2. Meaning it should handle as good or better than a Supra MK4 (.95-.96G) depending mostly on tire type. I could see the car, with sticky tires getting real close to 1G with all other stock parts.

EBD cannot be turned off. It senses locking and releases that one tire. It should only help in corner braking. It is like SUPER ABS system. ABS pulses the brakes on hard throttle without knowing at all if they are actually locked up. Since my cars don't have ABS, I can actually feel the pulsing in the brake on an ABS equipped car. The way EBD works, it actually has a sensor that checks to see if each tire is locked up. If it is locked up, it releases pressure on it and then checks for it to be moving and then binds back up. Essentially like limited slip for brakes. You are right though, it does have a proportioning value to it too. So that it also helps keep the vehicle stable. I didn't know that it proportioned now too.

http://www.toyota.com.au/glossary

^under EBD, it says "The latest Toyota EBD can adjust the fore/aft brake balance according to vehicle load and the right/left brake balance if the brakes are applied during cornering."

i wonder if this car can top the mr2's braking distance of 106 ft, which is faster than almost any car you can buy, including many exotics.

http://mr2.com/TEXT/HighPerf.html

^interesting car numbers here. Funny thing is, 2 toyota's top the list? somehow they missed the STI and EVO. I'm not sure how good the numbers are there, but Edmunds usually does a good job i thought. The G's for the mr2, supra, and rx-7 look about right, but the m3 only doing .86G's? ZR1 only a 5.2 0-60 mph? i don't think so.

[Cal]

5.2? That is a bit disappointing for a car of that class. 2012 GTR does it in 2.9.

[bersh]

a guy owns a zr1 near my gf's house. he says its impossible to launch cuz it just spins tires no matter what. he wont let me try though...
sooo 5.2 0-60 is prolly a real world estimate... but its supposed to be 3ish if you get it right.

[modifiedMR]

sooo 5.2 0-60 is prolly a real world estimate... but its supposed to be 3ish if you get it right.

yeah, i did read in other places 3.0-3.3. that's why I called bs on it. although having alot of power means nothing, if you can't put it to the ground. That's why I don't like big v8's in little cars. No need for lowend tq. I'm not into drag racing, so that's part of it.

[hiplainsdrftr]

Off topic, but I always felt drag was the orgasm of motorsports, less than a minute of awesomeness and you're done. Tuning might be foreplay and racing is the sex! I like sex, I mean racing. Hmmm, woult that make time trials like masterbation 'cause you're playing with yourself?

On topic, I don't see how elec. throttle can add response compared to a cable where the throttle moves the instant the pedal moves. I wonder what percent or tolerance there is between the computers idea of where a throttle should be and where I'm putting the pedal. Like, I give it 75% pedal and it gives 70-80% throttle depending on what the computer thinks the engine needs. It seems that some people had Mazda 6's and 3's, Scion TC's and Honda Civic Si's and would floor it, but get delayed engine response or they'd let off and get coasting (or a maintained speed) instead of engine braking, or they'd blip for the heel toe downshift and get an rpm mismatch. Most complaints are related to a delay of some sort and all are related to manual trannies. Of course I don't know these guys personally or if they can drive worth beans or not, but it concerns me.

[Cal]

That is a good point. I am going to research the electric cable more. I don't know how to rev match or heel toe or anything that isn't basic shifting. I'll learn eventually.

[modifiedMR]

^with as tossable as this car should be, you may not need to do much fancy footwork. lol. in my mr2 though, utilizing the brakes and gas to keep the car planted helps in hard cornering.

rev matching is not needed in new cars as that's why they have double and triple synchro's. really it only helps keep the car from lurching during shifting and saves the synchro life. many newer cars with do it for you now (IIRC the nissan z does it). if you shift really fast and hardly drop the throttle, it works about the same (in times when you are driving hard). I used to have a car that grinded gears some and was forced to do it to save the tranny. just buy an old manual and you'll learn real quick. lol.

[Cal]

I want to learn just so I can have the skill. I want to master my car.

[Orthonormal]

Can you still drift properly with ABS on a car? Can ABS be bypassed or is it now integrated into a traction control system?

I don't see why it should come into play. Unless you are relying on the ability to lock up your brakes with the brake pedal while you're drifting, ABS won't make a difference to you. I'm an autocrosser, not a drifter, but for the times where the rear grip is low enough that I get the car into an extended drift, the brakes are never involved. ABS won't affect the handbrake at all.

Does hard acceleration, engine braking and shifting (up or down, heal and toe, etc) still work with 'drive by wire' throttles? Can drive by wire be converted to a cable type throttle or is it too integrated and we won't have an IACV? I've read about people looking like doofuses trying to match revs to shifts when a computer moves the throttle plate for them. I've read those cars just coast when the gas pedal isn't depressed instead of engine braking.

There are some cars with electronic throttles that are tuned to close the throttle slowly when you lift, which can be a problem for performance driving. I have heard that the first drive by wire Civic Si had such a problem. Sports cars shouldn't experience it -- I've driven the electronic throttle version of the S2000 and did not notice a difference from my own car.

Do all traction and stability control systems have the ability to be disabled? Will oversteer and understeer always be corrected, even if I wanted to induce either?

It depends on the car model. Some allow the traction and stability systems to be completely disabled, some provide a "sport" mode that still steps in, and some can't be turned off.

Do you think this car will get stuck with some sort of electrical steering system? How will that affect the feel of controlling the car?

To my knowledge, there is no production car yet built that doesn't have a fully mechanical linkage from the steering wheel to the steering rods. "Electric" steering is just a matter of the details of how the power assist works. On the S2000, it just means that the power steering pump is powered by an electric motor instead of by an accessory belt. Other cars have varying degrees of sophistication in how the level of power assist is adjusted based on the vehicle speed. Different cars have their power assist tuned differently, and you just have to take it on a case by case basis and see how you like a particular car. The underlying technology won't give you much of an idea what the steering will actually feel like.

Will tire pressure monitoring systems prevent us from choosing our own wheel and tire upgrades? What happens when you're burning rubber and the heat makes the pressure rise?

TPMS give you a pretty wide range of pressures -- how much do your pressures go up when you are burning rubber? In most cases, the system just alerts you with a flashing light. I heard rumors that the system on the current Z06 Corvette reduces engine performance or forces stability control to stay on if it thinks your tires are flat, but I know people who race them and they have reported no issues when running the car with alternate wheels that don't have TPMS sensors.

Do you think the stripped/ track/ spec version will be available without any of the above mentioned technology?

ABS is required on all new cars. I think some form of TPMS is also. Traction and stability control are often offered as premium options, so the base model may come without them. Electronic throttle, either they all come with it or none of them do.

[Orthonormal]

On topic, I don't see how elec. throttle can add response compared to a cable where the throttle moves the instant the pedal moves.

It can't improve the response speed, but the engineers can play with the response curve so that with the pedal pressed halfway down, the throttle is either more or less than halfway open. That can give a peppier, or more sluggish feel to the car.

[Orthonormal]

EBD cannot be turned off. It senses locking and releases that one tire. It should only help in corner braking. It is like SUPER ABS system. ABS pulses the brakes on hard throttle without knowing at all if they are actually locked up. Since my cars don't have ABS, I can actually feel the pulsing in the brake on an ABS equipped car. The way EBD works, it actually has a sensor that checks to see if each tire is locked up. If it is locked up, it releases pressure on it and then checks for it to be moving and then binds back up.

This is not an accurate description of ABS and EBD.

An ABS has four wheel speed sensors, and has either three or four hydraulic controls. It works by monitoring the wheel speed sensors to determine if one or more wheels has locked up. When a wheel locks, it actuates the hydraulic circuit corresponding to that wheel to release the brake pressure to that wheel. When it senses that the wheel is spinning again, it lets the brake apply pressure again. The pulsing you feel is the cycle time of that sensing and control loop. 4-channel ABS has separate lines for each caliper. 3-channel has separate lines for the two front wheels, but can only interrupt braking force for both rear wheels together. Most sports cars use 4-channel ABS now.

Electronic brake distribution is a smart proportioning system that affects the relative pressures sent to each caliper up to the point where the wheels are locked. It doesn't sense lockup -- that's the realm of ABS. Instead, it senses what the car is doing, and predicts the relative amount of grip and tries to optimize the brake bias to maximize braking force without locking a wheel.

See Wikipedia

^interesting car numbers here. Funny thing is, 2 toyota's top the list? somehow they missed the STI and EVO. I'm not sure how good the numbers are there, but Edmunds usually does a good job i thought. The G's for the mr2, supra, and rx-7 look about right, but the m3 only doing .86G's? ZR1 only a 5.2 0-60 mph? i don't think so.

It's obviously a list from the 90s. The STi and Evo weren't available in the US when the Supra and RX-7 were being sold. Tires play a big factor in the lateral g and braking measurements. The 4th gen Corvette ZR-1 probably did run about 5.2 0-60. That was really fast once upon a time.

[modifiedMR]

Bosch Innovation

ABS has been modified many times. It supposedly used a "hydraulic aggregate" system in the 90's that I was referring to. I was wrong in thinking they didn't have wheel speed sensors. Never owned a car with ABS. lol. My mr2 manages a 104 ft 60-0, without it and IMO, I don't need it. More to fail.

the wikipedia page you have listed has "This article's factual accuracy is disputed."

IIRC, the original Toyota EBD used mechanical proportional valves on the abs. Find information on JDM 7th gen celica's aka zz231.

ABS can affect trail braking, which in some cars is used to aid in drifting, tracking and autox.

Trail braking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Trail Braking.

many race series do not allow abs nor stability control. Any computer controlled device can and will fail at some point. Also, ABS has been known to make spin outs more dangerous.

[Orthonormal]

The basic operation of ABS has always been what I described. My knowledge of the subject is not based on the Wikipedia article, I just tossed that out as another explanation in case you didn't like mine. As for the "disputed" status of the article, if you go to the discussion page and read what the dispute is about, it is about the specifics of how EBD functions, not about the explanation of how ABS works.

Nothing at the Bosch web site contradicts what I wrote. There have been advancements, such as faster and more sophisticated control computers, and as Bosch discusses, better/faster valves. Not a change in how the feedback loop works -- check this patent from 1970, long before ABS was commonly available in the US. The bottom of column 3 and top of column 4 describe pretty much the same process that I wrote about above.

It's true that poorly-tuned ABS can have irritating consequences. Usually it shows up as "ice mode" where the system seems to overreact and won't allow full braking for several seconds. I've encountered it in an M Coupe, but not in the Miata and S2000 that I autocrossed for 3+ years each. It is a known problem with the MR2 Spyder and Lotus Elise, and I vaguely recall a friend with an IS300 having trouble with it, so perhaps there is a good chance that the FR-S will have similar problems.

Other than that, a failure of ABS results in a car with a functional conventional braking system without ABS.

[hiplainsdrftr]

Modified MR - what do you mean by rev matching isn't necessary? I thought heel toe shifting during decceleration was normal shifting and is required. Braking for a tight turn after a big straight, being in 4th near redline and needing to get into 2nd to pull through the turn, how can this possibly be done without throttle blips? My trannies have single synchros and I can't bang gears with 3G's of RPM difference. I sure as hell don't double clutch like Vin suggests in FnF because I'm not an idiot, but I have to heel toe I think. My friend shifts then brakes in his xr4ti, but he's not really pushing it and isn't near redline so he has room to do it in. I'm either on the gas or the brake and was taught not to coast. How do you get into 2nd from 4th? I'd like to try it.

Big thanks to Orthonormal for touching on pretty much all of the topics I am concerned with. This real world experience information has helped me reduce my fears of us getting stuck with modern/ safe/ fuel efficient cars that provide limited feedback and response during spirited driving.

I still don't want ABS and will be looking for ways to bypass that system (perhaps install a hydrolic system from a celica). Maybe it's fine for not paying attention, being in snow, dirt or sand, but not for the other 99% of the time I'll be driving. I'll lock 'em up for various reasons/ situations. Not actually during a drift, but perhaps to initiate one. I'm not big on ebraking, but it's okay. I do prefer upsetting traction and suspension geometry over upsetting the drivetrain (for cost reasons). Besides, no ABS means no worries about gummed sensors and no 30 pound hydrolic actuator assembly under the hood. I might be out of luck on this one as I think it is a gov't requirement.

Computer controlled, electonically assisted power steering and TPMS are some things I wanted to touch on, but hope they never actually make it onto this new car.

I didn't know all steering might be directly linked and actually thought some weren't. I have read about some active steering (Mercedes I think) 'correcting' steering input based on speeds and such. I want consistency and a firm feel. Power assist is okay by me if it is direct and not variable or proportional.

TPMS seems great for the masses that don't check things like fluids, tread wear and tire pressure when getting gas. I check those things. I have TPMS in my console, the size of a pen and weighing just as much. Oh, it costs $5 to replace. Less parts = less to go wrong. If TPMS is required by gov't nowadays, then I'm disappointed in America... again.

I'm really going to hope for no TSC or at least one that can be disabled. Again, I like to upset the suspension and traction. Having a computer correct that for me will drive me mad.

I'm really really hoping for a sports car type of responsive throttle and not some detached sensation of an econobox tune that can't be modified. It's the way of the modern engine, it will limit modifications and that's too bad, but it is what it is. I just hope they do it right with this car and that it won't take any fun away from the driving experience.

Anyway, my fears of modern auto technology are mainly based on a lack of knowledge and experience with it. Perhaps I'm overly proud of my control abilities, perhaps I'm overly spoiled to have cars that need to be controlled. I feel instulted when the gov't says I can't be safe without a computer correcting stuff for me. I hope to become more informed and I am willing to try them, though it will be done with much skepticism.

[ForRealSomeday]

I read a pretty interesting series of articles on Jalopnik that had to do with this.

How To Turn A Grocery Getter Into A World Beater In 60 Days: Part One

They attempted to disable the ABS and it played all kinds of problems with the computer. Something to do with the traction control not knowing what the wheels were doing, and trying to throw the car off the track. Anyways it's an interesting read.

With the direction of the marketing thus far "ultimate balance" and what not. I would hope that Toyota would put the driving feel first, and give the option to turn off traction control all together.

[modifiedMR]

Modified MR - what do you mean by rev matching isn't necessary? I thought heel toe shifting during decceleration was normal shifting and is required. Braking for a tight turn after a big straight, being in 4th near redline and needing to get into 2nd to pull through the turn, how can this possibly be done without throttle blips?

In certain cars and situations, you will have to blip the throttle. I meant during straight line and in daily driving. In a FR car, you won't need to do this as much as you would in a FF, AWD or MR car because you will want to slow before the apex and are most likely to shift and be in turning during acceleration. It really depends mostly on the kinds of turns you are encountering and driving style.

There are cars now that will rev match the engine on downshifts via the ECU. The 370z has this option/model with it.

The more recent toyota's have not been tuner friendly really, but Subaru's are. I'm hoping a Cobb tune will be awaiting with a turbo, etc. stock (not counting the tune), so that it can be modified more easily and will be designed with a turbo setup (beefier parts similar to the STI). This car can easily turn into a track monster, if designed properly and I think it has been. They have had it chasing a Supra on the Ring.

[hiplainsdrftr]

modifiedMR - thanks for the shift explanation. I actually tried it a bit last night and on the way to work this morning. It felt kind of relaxed I guess, in a nice way. I was gonna write that I'd figured it out kind of, but you beat me to it already.

I hope this car is tunable and I hope some people start working on cracking the ecu code right away. I'm unfamiliar with Cobb, but I've been stuck in a Nissan rut for the last decade.

I'm very excited about this Scion and hope they get it to the dealerships soon. I'm interested in the Subie also, but don't think I can wait for 2013. I've got 5K saved so far and should have a little over 20 by next summer, all for my next car which is hopefully an FR-S!

I keep checking the news but... How much longer must we wait?!

[hiplainsdrftr]

ForRealSomeday... FR-S! Clever haha! I read part 1 and 2 so far. Thanks for the article, it's pretty sweet.

[modifiedMR]

I hope this car is tunable and I hope some people start working on cracking the ecu code right away. I'm unfamiliar with Cobb, but I've been stuck in a Nissan rut for the last decade.

In this next link, they show a gain of 15 hp and 20 tq on an EJ20 engine. That is the same sized engine in the FRS. It is turbo'd though, but the FRS will have dual injection and probably a more aggressive built head, which could mean a good tune might yield as much hp, but probably not as much tq. The second figure, if you look under into the link, states that power is made from the tune, their intake and a cat back exhaust. You can reflash the computer to specific mods too. I hope toyota doesn't block this as their ecu's are usually non-flashable. . Normally I'd say, it would be flashable, but since it has the lexus dual injection, who knows what ecu it's going to run.
CobbTuning.com - 04-05 AccessPORT


COBB Tuning Blog » AccessPORT Racer Spotlight

I can't wait to see this car and I'm saving myself. I need to sell my mr2, but if this car is over 25k and non-turbo, scion will have a hard time selling it to me. I'm going to have to go on a test drive for sure.