Letter to Subaru, STi Division

[modifiedMR]

Dear Subaru STi division,
You are currently making one of the first rwd cars ever for Subaru, which will also get an STi badge. There are rumors about this STi version coming in naturally aspirated form. With the failure of Toyota to bring a turbo variant of the car, the only hope for the enthusiasts of rwd, lightweight sport coupes is the Miata, S2000 and this FT86 (BRZ/FRS). The Miata and S2000 are good, but don't pack any punch like a WRX STi, nor do they have back seats (even if they are small). The BRZ STi should have a turbo. Without a turbo, the STi name loses it's validity at bringing handling WITH power. This car will not compete with the WRX STi because, the back seats are not going to be very comfortable, it's RWD and it's a coupe. Even if anyone would cross shop, at the very least, you'll sell something! Furthermore, you don't need to give it the most power. If it were to have 250-270 hp, it would be nice. You then could compete with more powerful cars like the 370z, Mustang, Camaro, Genesis, etc, but have a car that is much more nimble and responsive. You also can stay with the lightweight idea and keep it affordable. In closing, since Toyota doesn't have the nuggets, can Subaru build a rwd contender to the other more powerful cars on the market? The answer is YES. The question is WHY NOT?

Mark

Owner Modded 1991 MR2 TURBO (street legal fun), 1995 Corolla (daily)

[Snoopyalien24]

Please let it reach Subaru's ears

[silentheart]

I have a major doubt on this getting to STi or have it implemented for first model year. I thought STi only mod the existing model. For ex. WRX to WRX STi. So they will take whatever first model year and change it to STi. unless Subi is going to have turbo version from day1, we are not going to see STi with turbo in model year 1...

[modifiedMR]

I have a major doubt on this getting to STi or have it implemented for first model year. I thought STi only mod the existing model. For ex. WRX to WRX STi. So they will take whatever first model year and change it to STi. unless Subi is going to have turbo version from day1, we are not going to see STi with turbo in model year 1...

I expect it will be another year or maybe 2, but don't come out with weaksauce and expect us to put it on our fries. This car has the potential to run with some serious cars, if done right. Subaru has pushed the WRX STi to great lengths, all I'm asking is for a turbo. Even if it has a much power as the current regular WRX, it would be awesome. How much does it cost to add a turbo kit, put in forged pistons (means pulling the engine) and getting a tune? That stuff adds up quick and I bet Subaru has already a setup that would work on the car, so why not bolt it up, lower the compression a bit and tune it? It would be like a day exercise for Subaru to do this. Every auto mag and performance enthusiast is waiting for this as it is!

[ej25ti]

i felt the need to let everyone know that STi actually officially changed to STI a few years ago... jussayin :P

[silentheart]

I expect it will be another year or maybe 2, but don't come out with weaksauce and expect us to put it on our fries. This car has the potential to run with some serious cars, if done right. Subaru has pushed the WRX STi to great lengths, all I'm asking is for a turbo. Even if it has a much power as the current regular WRX, it would be awesome. How much does it cost to add a turbo kit, put in forged pistons (means pulling the engine) and getting a tune? That stuff adds up quick and I bet Subaru has already a setup that would work on the car, so why not bolt it up, lower the compression a bit and tune it? It would be like a day exercise for Subaru to do this. Every auto mag and performance enthusiast is waiting for this as it is!

I agree with you 99.9% on this. In fact, there is already a OEM turbo that will fit perfectly on the "FA" engine. New Forester turbo is a FB 2.5 engine. There are more than enough room under the hood of BRZ to fit a turbo too. I am keeping my eyes open. If there is a working FB turbo engine show up in auto yard in my area, I am there.
Only 0.1% I don't agree is Subi will keep the car engine same level as FRS because BRZ is not suppose to kill FRS sale. Just like you, I would prefer a turbo version. Even just take it up another 30hp and extra 25 ft-lb torq. and this car will be just sweet. STi can just put a FB 2.5 turbo in and tune it up to 260hp. Not a lot of work needed. Stay tune my friend.

[modifiedMR]

Only 0.1% I don't agree is Subi will keep the car engine same level as FRS because BRZ is not suppose to kill FRS sale. Just like you, I would prefer a turbo version. Even just take it up another 30hp and extra 25 ft-lb torq. and this car will be just sweet. STi can just put a FB 2.5 turbo in and tune it up to 260hp. Not a lot of work needed. Stay tune my friend.

Right now, having a BRZ and FRS that are basically the same will not be smart. They will be competing, but if you differ them enough, it will help to push them apart and keep people from cross shopping. Refer to next paragraph and think a regular BRZ is just a mildly upgraded FRS.

I'm not saying a turbo BRZ. I'm saying a turbo BRZ STI with 250+ hp, descent brakes (don't need brembo's for this car, look up 1993 mr2 turbo braking distance with toyota parts and 2800 lbs-----106-109 ft 60-0), basic electronics (no cd player - ipod/bluetooth, no traction control - put in mechanical LSD), nice FUNCTIONAL aero and lightweight rims. That's it. Sell it for less than 30k and will SELL LIKE CRAZY, while becoming legendary!

[silentheart]

Right now, having a BRZ and FRS that are basically the same will not be smart. They will be competing, but if you differ them enough, it will help to push them apart and keep people from cross shopping. Refer to next paragraph and think a regular BRZ is just a mildly upgraded FRS.

I'm not saying a turbo BRZ. I'm saying a turbo BRZ STI with 250+ hp, descent brakes (don't need brembo's for this car, look up 1993 mr2 turbo braking distance with toyota parts and 2800 lbs-----106-109 ft 60-0), basic electronics (no cd player - ipod/bluetooth, no traction control - put in mechanical LSD), nice FUNCTIONAL aero and lightweight rims. That's it. Sell it for less than 30k and will SELL LIKE CRAZY, while becoming legendary!

Yes, it will be stupid to have 2 same car from different brands compete against each other. And that is why BRZ will have be able to add options while FRS will be Scion with all standard option. Just like BRZ STi, there will be a FRS TRD version just like the current Scion tC. I would not be surprised if the TRD is just rebranded parts of Subi STi.
Again, both you and I are dreaming and hoping to have a STi turbo. My fault, I like to correct my post to say I would like to see BRZ WRX version. Yes, we are talking about different thing here. I am thinking with Subi logic here. For Impreza line, you have Impreza->Impreza WRX->Impreza WRX STi. STi is much better upgrade version of WRX. They mod the WRX, not the regular Impreza. So my logic is to have WRX (Turbo version) first then upgrade it to STi. But it seen like it is not going that way.
I would love to have a STi you described that is strip down and fun to drive. All I need is to put a roll cage in it and I am good to go. We can and still dream.

[Cal]

My dream is a turbocharged 220BHP with a stout block and internals that can handle 400+HP, brembo brakes and a torsen diff. All for about 26K.

[Spoolin]

Ok I'm new here so please don't take me as an ass but just for the argument and my opinion why not keep it non turbo? Does anyone remember turbo used to not even exist? And yet we still had 10 sec cars that weighed A LOT more yes we are talking v8s but come on now we are talking a way lighter car with 2x the technology that we just want to do low 13s hell even high twelves why not leave the more power to us as owners so the car can be sold for cheaper because honestly if they did come out with a 260-300hp version they will mark it up to 35 40 thousand just because any other car that is that fast sells for that price? I mean honestly at first most of us at first will just want another 60hp so why not just do it all motor? Think of this just to add a turbo then you need a intercooler, piping, some type of oiling system , and probably a heavier manifold that's a lot of weight to the front and a lot of price. Don't get me wrong I love turbos I think they can do amazing things for a car hell I own a car that has two lol in fact I have one tattooed on my arm but seriously Toyota even said that this car is for us as consumers to easily customize so seriously 60hp on a na motor is not that hard we are talking cams, headers, intake, exhaust and a tune all that besides the cams is a cake walk to install and will make the car sound way better and may even take off some weight and could give us some great torque. Yes sti has traditionally been turbo but why not try something new it could be great and could keep the car simpler and lighter

[modifiedMR]

Spoolin> WE ARE TALKING STI VERSION. Buy a watered down standard one and keep it na. How many s2000's do you know of that have 60+ hp and are NA? This engine is more like the f20c than a k20. Turbo's aren't that complicated and Subaru uses them everywhere. They add efficiency!

[Spoolin]

yes i understand we are talking STI version but that still doesnt mean every sti version has to be turboed maybe the sti will get extra hp some where else and actually i know of more then a couple a track s2000s that have well over 60+ over stock horsepower on less then what i stated to do to this fa engine. Technology has come a far way i know a tuner here in town that getting well over 100hp out of intake and headers on a new camaro yes again its v8 but hell half that power for the 4 cylinder and you have 50hp right there. IF ITS A DECENT ENGINE and its going to be tuneable like they say it is this car could have a lot of unlocked hp. they do have it totally tuned to almost prius emissions. that means that they probably have that motor running at way less then it can. on your s2000 reference those motors come from the factory running at about their max thats why a lot of people have problems getting big gains from then. im hoping by the way toyota said this car was going to be tuneable that we wont have that same problem and looking at the emissions i cant help but think thats true

[Spoolin]

And again honestly this is just for the sake of argument/discussion because trust me if a turbo version does come out I will be going for that one lol but I don't think if it does come na that the car will be a failure

[Cal]

Welcome Spoolin.

I don't an NA car will be a failure either. I believe an STi version that is NA doesn't make sense as all WRX STi's have been boosted. The STi brand is synonymous with a turbo, which is why we alll hope the STi version of this one will be turbo.

[Spoolin]

I agree I hope for turbo. And your right sti should be turbo I was just looking for a nice turbo vs na argument/discussion.

[Deslock]

You are currently making one of the first rwd cars ever for Subaru, which will also get an STi badge.

Has it been confirmed that it'll get an STI badge?

With the failure of Toyota to bring a turbo variant of the car

Toyota did not fail to bring out a turbo version, since they never attempted to do so in the first place.

The question is WHY NOT?

I know that's a rhetorical question, but:

1. It increases weight, cost, COG, frontward bias, and fuel consumption (and in the case of a turbo, adds complexity and maintenance as well).
2. Economies of scale. They can reduce overall costs by offering only one drivetrain option.

To be clear, I like F/I and personally would spend a little more for it (assuming some of the attributes I mentioned were not increased that significantly). But I'm not at all surprised that one isn't being introduced out of the gate. I suspect it'll happen in a few years, if there is high demand for the FT.

[silentheart]

Sort of good news, I think.
Since Subaru is entering Super GT GT300 class with BRZ, there must be some mod to the race car to compete with the big boyz like Skyline, Fairlady, Z4 and others with close to 300 HP. That means, either
1) ECM can be tuned to just under 300 HP with ~250 ft-lb torq.
2) Turbo is coming!
3) FB25 with turbo mounted in the race car.
4) strip down with carbon hood, fenders and doors.
I hope it is not #4.

[modifiedMR]

Sort of good news, I think.
Since Subaru is entering Super GT GT300 class with BRZ, there must be some mod to the race car to compete with the big boyz like Skyline, Fairlady, Z4 and others with close to 300 HP. That means, either
1) ECM can be tuned to just under 300 HP with ~250 ft-lb torq.
2) Turbo is coming!
3) FB25 with turbo mounted in the race car.
4) strip down with carbon hood, fenders and doors.
I hope it is not #4.

Can't tune a 2.0 to 300 hp from 200 hp. Believe me, I research cars like I'm building the most badass one one the planet, which I might be. LOL. Race gas will get you closer, but you'd need ITB's, cams and a very well setup intake manifold/headwork.

Turbo would make it cake.

fb25 turbo would put it over the limit. LOL

stripped car still ain't pushing 300 hp and trust me, each car is doing so.

A race brz means nothing. It means we can watch what could be done with half a mil. I want to see what can be done with 10k and can it beat a mr2 turbo (stock for stock then 10k in mods) to go faster, stop better, handle more precise AND be reliable. I don't see it being possible with low compression and that would mean stock turbo. By the time you put in low compression pistons, turbo power holding rods, a FULL turbo setup and then clutch, etc. You've put well over 10k and you can do alot with 10k in an mr2 turbo.
Parts :: ATS Racing

if you started with a 93+ turbo, you'd have 350 whp, brakes capable of 106 ft 60-0 and cornering g's of .94-.96 depending on the test. 350 whp mr2 = mid 12's with good tires. A WRX STI will do a whole lot with 10k too, but not been down that road, yet.

[silentheart]

Can't tune a 2.0 to 300 hp from 200 hp. Believe me, I research cars like I'm building the most badass one one the planet, which I might be. LOL. Race gas will get you closer, but you'd need ITB's, cams and a very well setup intake manifold/headwork.

You are right that with $0.5Mil they can build engine that can do anything. But they can mod and build an 2.0L engine to close to 200HP. May be a combination of all 4 I was guessing. I am just saying to be able to run with the other GT300 group car, BRZ has to do at lease 1 of the 4 things.

[KnightCrawler]

I want to see what can be done with 10k and can it beat a mr2 turbo (stock for stock then 10k in mods) to go faster, stop better, handle more precise AND be reliable.

I know you are joking with this one lol FRS will never be able to beat a MR2 And you know that! and then an additional 10k on top- thats some Matt Millen Pikes Peak hill climb money that produced a 800 HP Celica lolololol
The 3SGTE is by far the most reliable and fastest of any Toyota 4 Cyl, let alone any 4 cyl. built!!!

hehe Toyota fan here can ya tell lolol

[ej25ti]

I know you are joking with this one lol FRS will never be able to beat a MR2 And you know that! and then an additional 10k on top- thats some Matt Millen Pikes Peak hill climb money that produced a 800 HP Celica lolololol
The 3SGTE is by far the most reliable and fastest of any Toyota 4 Cyl, let alone any 4 cyl. built!!!

hehe Toyota fan here can ya tell lolol

if anything i feel the FRS will be just as fast or .1 second slower in the 1/4. and considering it's NA that's really not that bad...
imo

[modifiedMR]

if anything i feel the FRS will be just as fast or .1 second slower in the 1/4. and considering it's NA that's really not that bad...
imo

Yeah, but no potential for a street build. How much for forged internals, fueling and a turbo to make more power? Look at the mr-s. It's not too slow for a NA 4 cylinder, but it won't touch a lightly modded sw20 turbo $ for $. It takes soooo much more money to build a na 4 cylinder into what a mildly modded turbo car can do. I'm only asking for a turbo STI, the base model can be slow, efficient and get sweet gas mileage for all I care.

[silentheart]

fb 2.0 turbo is coming in 2013. only if the world does not end on 12/20/2012.

[Cal]

^ It wont end and what's your news source on that turbo?

[silentheart]

It was announced in LA Auto show. I was going through the clip and thanks to
The Turbo Conundrum - Page 4 - Scion FR-S Forum | Subaru BRZ Forum | Toyota FT-86 Forum | ft86club
Post #60.
So I ran over to Subie Midwest office in our building and they say FB20 will have a turbo for WRX. Which WRX? my friend told me it the Impreza WRX first. Should be on BRZ later.

[topcat]

hmmm, I thought that the BRZ and the WRX ran different versions of the 2.0 engine, so the STI/'turbo BRZ' will need to be engineered specifically... still, that being said, Subaru and turbocharging are synonymous, so in my view it will happen; and if its anything like the 2.0 turbo Subaru that I'm running (EU spec Outback with a 2.0 turbo diesel built from a cut down petrol block H6), the intercooler will be on top and the turbocharger will be underneath the engine.

[modifiedMR]

hmmm, I thought that the BRZ and the WRX ran different versions of the 2.0 engine, so the STI/'turbo BRZ' will need to be engineered specifically... still, that being said, Subaru and turbocharging are synonymous, so in my view it will happen; and if its anything like the 2.0 turbo Subaru that I'm running (EU spec Outback with a 2.0 turbo diesel built from a cut down petrol block H6), the intercooler will be on top and the turbocharger will be underneath the engine.

Only issue with that is the engine is lowered and the manifold is turned the other way on this car. Still, this is Subaru, without a turbo, this car is not s2000 grade. I would like the potential to be more like the 370z. I still say it has a chance to topple even some rare cars because of the low weight and low cog. Make it happen Toyota/Subaru!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[topcat]

interesting; I don't doubt there will be a c. 300bhp turbo Scooby

[RGT]

The OP answered his own question when he said that the BRZ would not compete with the WRX STI. Unfortunately STI owners have wanted a two door version for ages now. If they produce a brz with a turbo badged as an STI the impreza is a goner.

To me the BRZ is to the WRX as the eclipse is to the Evo.

[modifiedMR]

The OP answered his own question when he said that the BRZ would not compete with the WRX STI. Unfortunately STI owners have wanted a two door version for ages now. If they produce a brz with a turbo badged as an STI the impreza is a goner.

To me the BRZ is to the WRX as the eclipse is to the Evo.

If the brz~wrx as the eclipse~evo, then it would have a turbo. 4g63's in both had turbo's and even the newer junk ones had v6's available. Hell, the 1st and 2nd gens had AWD too!

A 4 door awd car with all it's techno wizard is FAR different than a lighter, smaller (backseat? I'm not going back there!), RWD coupe. They are just vastly different. The amount of doors doesn't equate to near the differences as the weight, size and drivetrain layout (awd vs rwd). The WRX is the practical sports car, while the brz is the more pure/traditional type of sports car. If what you are saying is right, then the regular WRX would lose sales to the BRZ. This is apples to oranges. There have been STI's of other cars too. All had turbo's, but NONE are rwd coupes, nor do they weight sub 2800 lbs.

I would just as much like Toyota to go hardcore and maybe make a FRS Supra edition, but Toyota just hasn't got the nuggets to do it!