BRZ RWD and NA only Says Autocar

[Cal]

It's no secret that quite a few of the FRS, BRZ followers having been hoping for turbo charged versions of the cars. According to a recent article by Autocar this will not be the case. The article states in an interview with Autocar, Subaru’s product planning chief and BRZ development head Toshio Masuda revealed to them the BRZ would only come in a RWD model and would sport a single engine choice: A Naturally Aspirated 2.0 litre direct injected boxer boasting "less than 300BHP". The engine codenamed "FA" would be mated to either a six speed manual or six speed automatic.

The article goes on further to say the BRZ will be show in final production form at the Tokyo motor show later this November and will hit dealers alongside it's Toyota sibling in spring of 2012.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsAr...llCars/259183/

Whether or not there will be an STI version of them BRZ was not mentioned.



Here's more on the BRZ concept.
Toyota FT-86 II and Subaru BRZ from Frankfurt Auto Show

[modifiedMR]

What a bunch of BS. F U Subaru! All of us gear heads wanted a real performance rwd coupe from Toyota or Subaru. When Toyota shafted us, we'd hoped that Subaru would come through. Well, unless this is false, I probably won't buy one. Maybe if the NA is boasting 260 hp or more, I'll think about it, but I doubt that very much. I'd take less in turbo form because, it would then be easier to mod to the 350 whp I would like in a 2800 lb car. Guess it's time to get a new intake manifold and some cams for the 2.

[silentheart]

1) Just like the JV between Toyota Matrix and Pontiac Vibe(erater), same car, same engine. They are not going to beat up each other.
2) If it is more than 200 hp and 200 ft-lb torq, I will get the year 2 version due to brand new model year issue and new engine design.
3) I If you read the article carefully, there is nothing about not having turbo STi for Subaru with bigger 2.5L turbo IN THE FUTURE. I am not sure about Scion
4) I totally agree with modifiedMR, with a 2.0L engine at more than 200 HP, the compression ratio will be very high. That mean the boost will be limited by turbo or SC without engine blow up.

[ej25ti]

3) I If you read the article carefully, there is nothing about not having turbo STi for Subaru with bigger 2.5L turbo. I am not sure about Scion

agreed

4) I totally agree with modifiedMR, with a 2.0L engine at more than 200 HP, the compression ratio will be very high. That mean the boost will be limited by turbo or SC without engine blow up.

x3

[Shevon]

Like i keep saying...200hp and 170tq is cool if its NA and must be a screamer which i dont mind. moding the na motor with stroker kits and stuff like that most likely expensive but get good gains and the reliability a little better than FI. Something redling about 7500 rpm is respectable. Have you guys looked at the specs on the new Si. 201hp 170 tq 7500 redline and weighing in at 2874 i think. Its safe to say those are benchmark numbers to go by with conservative expectations being in same price range and all except Si being FF. But we all really want something in the neighorhood of 250ish.

[modifiedMR]

Like i keep saying...200hp and 170tq is cool if its NA and must be a screamer which i dont mind. moding the na motor with stroker kits and stuff like that most likely expensive but get good gains and the reliability a little better than FI. Something redling about 7500 rpm is respectable. Have you guys looked at the specs on the new Si. 201hp 170 tq 7500 redline and weighing in at 2874 i think. Its safe to say those are benchmark numbers to go by with conservative expectations being in same price range and all except Si being FF. But we all really want something in the neighorhood of 250ish.

A lotus 1zz engine (1.8L) makes 190 hp and 133 tq. Making a 2.0 L engine produce 200 hp and 150 tq is not that crazy. When you consider the dual injection and such, it should be relatively easy. It is the fact that it will have over 11:1 compression probably, which will make it very expensive to modify. Simple turbo model would fix it. It's not like they have to r&d much as the engine mounts just like an EJ supposedly. Drop compression (easy), design a new exhaust manifold (again easy) and use one of their already off the shelf turbo's. It would be like clock work for Subaru. They have extensive work in going from NA boxer to turbo. Why they would choose not to, is beyond me. Then they'd have 2 models and pull many from the mustang/camaro/370z/genesis crowd. Very few people looking at those cars are going to cross shop a 200 hp ft. Most who will are going to come from the Si, ms3, gti and miata crowd, which are much smaller demographic really. It just seems like something so easy for them to do, but would majorly impact the sport compact scene. Imagine how many s chassis would have sold here with a sr20 as an option? I would probably own one right now! If you looked at the "what engine you would like to see" thread, you'd notice very few are excited about what is known right now.

[silentheart]

A lotus 1zz engine (1.8L) makes 190 hp and 133 tq. Making a 2.0 L engine produce 200 hp and 150 tq is not that crazy. When you consider the dual injection and such, it should be relatively easy. It is the fact that it will have over 11:1 compression probably, which will make it very expensive to modify. Simple turbo model would fix it. It's not like they have to r&d much as the engine mounts just like an EJ supposedly. Drop compression (easy), design a new exhaust manifold (again easy) and use one of their already off the shelf turbo's. It would be like clock work for Subaru. They have extensive work in going from NA boxer to turbo. Why they would choose not to, is beyond me. Then they'd have 2 models and pull many from the mustang/camaro/370z/genesis crowd. Very few people looking at those cars are going to cross shop a 200 hp ft. Most who will are going to come from the Si, ms3, gti and miata crowd, which are much smaller demographic really. It just seems like something so easy for them to do, but would majorly impact the sport compact scene. Imagine how many s chassis would have sold here with a sr20 as an option? I would probably own one right now! If you looked at the "what engine you would like to see" thread, you'd notice very few are excited about what is known right now.

Not to freak you out more, the BRZ's engine has the code name "FA" (f**ked in the @$$ may be). So, it is a modified FB20 engine (longer rod may be?)

[blofeld42]

It wouldn't at all surprise me if a turbo version or turbo cousin followed a one to two years later. Supposedly the WRX and STi will be divorced from the Impreza platform in about that time frame, and the rumored dimensions are very close to that of the FRS.

My guess is they'll repackage a bunch of things, probably increase the size a bit, add AWD and a turbo to the FRS platform, and call it a WRX.

[Cal]

That first post looked a lot longer on my phone.............

[KnightCrawler]

They are going to charge a premium for this car with 200 hp, and try to say its the best on the market.

[ForRealSomeday]

I like the "Less than 300 hp" statement. 170 is definitely less than 300.

[modifiedMR]

I like the "Less than 300 hp" statement. 170 is definitely less than 300.

Yeah, he could have said less than 500 hp. What a joke.

Silentheart> ROFL!!!

I think they are going to do what I thought the Dbags would do. I've said it before. Tell everyone there is only an NA version to start and then 2 years later, whilst holding out information about as long as they can, dropping a turbo edition/model later.

[bryanf]

Starting out with an NA engine is no surprise at all. As long as the weight and price are low they should sell well and than adding forced induction will follow in a couple of years. It's a well-used pattern...

[Cal]

Yeap instead of a model refresh just come out with a 2013 STI version.

[Shevon]

A lotus 1zz engine (1.8L) makes 190 hp and 133 tq. Making a 2.0 L engine produce 200 hp and 150 tq is not that crazy. When you consider the dual injection and such, it should be relatively easy. It is the fact that it will have over 11:1 compression probably, which will make it very expensive to modify. Simple turbo model would fix it. It's not like they have to r&d much as the engine mounts just like an EJ supposedly. Drop compression (easy), design a new exhaust manifold (again easy) and use one of their already off the shelf turbo's. It would be like clock work for Subaru. They have extensive work in going from NA boxer to turbo. Why they would choose not to, is beyond me. Then they'd have 2 models and pull many from the mustang/camaro/370z/genesis crowd. Very few people looking at those cars are going to cross shop a 200 hp ft. Most who will are going to come from the Si, ms3, gti and miata crowd, which are much smaller demographic really. It just seems like something so easy for them to do, but would majorly impact the sport compact scene. Imagine how many s chassis would have sold here with a sr20 as an option? I would probably own one right now! If you looked at the "what engine you would like to see" thread, you'd notice very few are excited about what is known right now.

Yep i was thinking along those lines too. As for the other thread...toyobaru can come to a compromise and give us at least 240hp/200tq in FI or NA form. This is why i will be leasing the 1st generation of this car cus its almost always better come 2nd gen.

[modifiedMR]

Yep i was thinking along those lines too. As for the other thread...toyobaru can come to a compromise and give us at least 240hp/200tq in FI or NA form. This is why i will be leasing the 1st generation of this car cus its almost always better come 2nd gen.

My problem is that I could use a new DD, but I guess I can keep the mr2 modest for now, until it does come out. Should allow me to have both. That said, I'd rather pick the better one and make it nasty. All well, I can save for the time being as I won't touch a 200 hp, 150 tq "sports car." I want handling, braking, drivers feel and power coupled with a newer style, but I guess I can't have cake, brownies and some ice cream at the same time.

[Deslock]

What a bunch of BS. F U Subaru! All of us gear heads wanted a real performance rwd coupe from Toyota or Subaru.

I say bravo Subaru.

When Toyota shafted us, we'd hoped that Subaru would come through.

Toyota shafted us by sticking so closely to the original FT86 concept? It's been known for a long time that both versions would be mechanically identical, so this isn't news.

Maybe if the NA is boasting 260 hp or more, I'll think about it, but I doubt that very much.

No way will it produce 260 hp from a N/A 2.0L piston engine (it'd be even more of a high revver than the S2k and RX8).

All well, I can save for the time being as I won't touch a 200 hp, 150 tq "sports car."

You can disqualify the Toyobaru as a traditional sports car due to its rear seats, but it ought to offer more sports-car-like driving dynamics than, say, the Mustang, Genesis, MS3, G37, or WRX (some of those are capable handlers, but they're not nimble).

I want handling, braking, drivers feel and power coupled with a newer style, but I guess I can't have cake, brownies and some ice cream at the same time.

Yep. Powerful, Cheap, Lightweight: Choose two.

[modifiedMR]

I say bravo Subaru.

Toyota shafted us by sticking so closely to the original FT86 concept? It's been known for a long time that both versions would be mechanically identical, so this isn't news.

No way will it produce 260 hp from a N/A 2.0L piston engine (it'd be even more of a high revver than the S2k and RX8).

Yep. Powerful, Cheap, Lightweight: Choose two.

Who said it had to be a 2.0? Notice I said doubt it very much. A 2.5L FB (probably would called a FA25) with dual injection can push 240 hp and 180 tq with the right internals. The F-series in the s2000 isn't that technologically great. Rotaries ain't great either. I don't think you realize what dual injection can do.

Toyota sticking to the concept means ish to me. It's a concept meant for discussion, but final design should be changed to fit better in-line with customer wants/needs.

You can have descently powerful, moderately priced AND lightweight if they would ease up on the extra bs and sell a performance model. Look how much stuff you get in a RS EVO and then take out the awd cost. Should put you around $25-28k for a 250+ hp car that weighs less than 2900 lbs (if the NA is 2800 lbs).

[ej25ti]

Subaru does seem kinda set on the 2.0, i kinda doubt theyd switch to a 2.5 now

http://www.fhi.co.jp/english/contents/pdf_en_73752.pdf

[Deslock]

Who said it had to be a 2.0?

Though there was an unfounded rumor about a year ago that the Scion version would have a 2.5L, all credible reports I've seen have said 2.0L for some time.

I don't think you realize what dual injection can do.

Do you mean direct injection? (I'm not familiar with dual injection)

There's no question that the D-4S direct injection system will provide a bump in peak torque. More expensive cars have seen a significant increase in specific output, but I'm not counting on more than 5 ftlbs/L at this price point (I hope to be pleasantly surprised).

Toyota sticking to the concept means ish to me. It's a concept meant for discussion, but final design should be changed to fit better in-line with customer wants/needs.

That's a far cry from "Toyota shafted us" (as you put it). I think Toyota/Subaru are listening to customer wants/needs. Like it or not, small, expensive, inefficient sports coupes don't sell well.

You can have descently powerful, moderately priced AND lightweight if they would ease up on the extra bs and sell a performance model. Look how much stuff you get in a RS EVO and then take out the awd cost. Should put you around $25-28k for a 250+ hp car that weighs less than 2900 lbs (if the NA is 2800 lbs).

$25-28k is too much and 2900 pounds isn't light. And though the Lancer is a larger vehicle, it's worth noting that the DE is FWD, has a 148 hp 2.0L, doesn't have a turbo, and already weighs 2900 pounds. The Lancer GTS has a 168hp 2.4L and weighs 3010 pounds.

If more power is a priority for you, there are several options (wait for possible F/I version, add F/I yourself, or buy one of the many existing more powerful cars).

[modifiedMR]

Though there was an unfounded rumor about a year ago that the Scion version would have a 2.5L, all credible reports I've seen have said 2.0L for some time.

A 2.5 for this wouldn't be even anything to swap in for Subaru. The bolt patterns, IIRC, are the same as the EJ's and probably for the FB's for both displacements. Why could Subaru not make a performance model and the basic SLOW daily you want? Like I said, this is supposed to be a sports car. If you drive any car hard, it won't get good gas mileage, regardless of engine size. Turbo's actually increase efficiency in vacuum.

Do you mean direct injection? (I'm not familiar with dual injection)

Toyota GR engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Some variants use multi-port fuel injection, some have D4 direct injection others have a combination of direct injection and multi-port fuel injection or D4-S." Get learned.


There's no question that the D-4S direct injection system will provide a bump in peak torque. More expensive cars have seen a significant increase in specific output, but I'm not counting on more than 5 ftlbs/L at this price point (I hope to be pleasantly surprised).

That's a far cry from "Toyota shafted us" (as you put it). I think Toyota/Subaru are listening to customer wants/needs. Like it or not, small, expensive, inefficient sports coupes don't sell well.

Are you familiar with the 240sx? Even though they will sell more NA versions, they will also sell many turbo variants. Furthermore, people look at the better model and think more highly of even the NA. Most thing the 240sx is a POS, yet the Silvia gets alot more respect.

$25-28k is too much and 2900 pounds isn't light. And though the Lancer is a larger vehicle, it's worth noting that the DE is FWD, has a 148 hp 2.0L, doesn't have a turbo, and already weighs 2900 pounds. The Lancer GTS has a 168hp 2.4L and weighs 3010 pounds.

Is is not too much for me and I think even the NA is going to be close to the lower end of that. 2900 lbs is light by todays standards. I know the lancer is a different car. My point is that the EVO and STi are around 3200-3300 lbs using a larger and more complicated chassis/drivetrain. This car should be lighter than those, yet have the same power potential. Power to weight owns. Compare a 2900 lb turbo FT to anything with a turbo and/or over 200 hp and tell me what is light or not. Mine will be bare bones and I'd hope to get it to 2700 lbs with removing any interior, etc.

If more power is a priority for you, there are several options (wait for possible F/I version, add F/I yourself, or buy one of the many existing more powerful cars).

I don't like what is on the market. Nothing is light enough, have the handling capabilities, braking or overall package that I'm looking for. I want something similar in performance/modability to the sw20, which I already have, that has some bench seats in back. Think last gen celica with rwd and a better powertrain than the zz series engines (a rwd 2gr for example) that costs less than 30k. It's nothing for Subaru to do. The wrx is a close example, but I don't want awd or 4 doors, yet it's still priced less than 30k. Is it too much to ask for them to just add a turbo model with even 210+ hp is all, that will be stout enough to boost higher? The jdm 2.0L STi has 280 hp and I think this FA series with the dual injection can easily do higher, but I'd settle for alot less because of weight as long as it's built similar in stoutness. I'm not the only one and I'd bet the muscle cars would lose sales to it along with the 370z, rx-8 (maybe future rx7), and genesis.

Does that make sense?

[Deslock]

A 2.5 for this wouldn't be even anything to swap in for Subaru. The bolt patterns, IIRC, are the same as the EJ's and probably for the FB's for both displacements. Why could Subaru not make a performance model and the basic SLOW daily you want? Like I said, this is supposed to be a sports car. If you drive any car hard, it won't get good gas mileage, regardless of engine size. Turbo's actually increase efficiency in vacuum.

That's all well and good, but the point is that it's been known for a long time it's getting a 2.0L. I'm sure Subaru and Toyota have reasons for not offering two versions out of the gate (economies of scale, perhaps).

Toyota GR engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Some variants use multi-port fuel injection, some have D4 direct injection others have a combination of direct injection and multi-port fuel injection or D4-S." Get learned.

Multi-point/multi-port injection isn't new. Anyway, I've never seen anyone refer to the combination of it and DI as "dual injection".

Are you familiar with the 240sx?

Yes.

My point is that the EVO and STi are around 3200-3300 lbs

2011 STI: 3373
2011 EVO: 3517

[silentheart]

Yeah, he could have said less than 500 hp. What a joke.

Silentheart> ROFL!!!

I think they are going to do what I thought the Dbags would do. I've said it before. Tell everyone there is only an NA version to start and then 2 years later, whilst holding out information about as long as they can, dropping a turbo edition/model later.

I hope you got my longer rod part too... I am so glad you enjoy it the FA engine. Have a nice week.

[silentheart]

To Deslock,
Dual Injuctions= on in the p*ssy and one in the @$$. Same time maybe?

[ej25ti]

Yeah, he could have said less than 500 hp. What a joke.

Silentheart> ROFL!!!

I think they are going to do what I thought the Dbags would do. I've said it before. Tell everyone there is only an NA version to start and then 2 years later, whilst holding out information about as long as they can, dropping a turbo edition/model later.

i still have nightmares about this....

[modifiedMR]

i still have nightmares about this....

I keep thinking that if it handles superb and has a really good feel, I might buy a NA. I feel though, the turbo model will come out drop less than a year later, while my NA just dropped 3-4k off the lot. Damn the marketers. It may also be the reason I don't buy one at all (if a turbo never comes out). They need to atleast say that, "we might have a turbo variant, but nothing is ready or set to go into production." Then we might have an idea. Hell, we still don't have solid numbers on what is coming out!

[ej25ti]

I plan to go all out with this car though
if they are gonna offer upgraded/stronger suspension, brakes, wheels/tires, tranny, drivetrain, and interals later on, im gonna be pissed
for example, the STi six speed is super coveted and expensive for WRX owners, because it is 100 times better. i wouldnt wanna deal with the shitty 5 speed of the WRX. I know the BRZ is supposed to be a six speed, but if they are gonna offer a much better six speed for the STI model... hm

[modifiedMR]

I know the BRZ is supposed to be a six speed, but if they are gonna offer a much better six speed for the STI model... hm

Exactly. It will, in essence, actually either buy the NA or wait for a non-existent turbo model. If there isn't a turbo model in the pike at all, which they probably already know by now, they should say so. At this point, I'm leaning towards just modding my mr2. I just can't justify buying a +23k car that does not have more than 210 hp that is rwd. It's not practical or really that affordable. It seems like bump in price for a rwd Civic SI. Why would you when there is a genesis turbo for about the same (about to get a refresh) and other cars for similar that have more power. Toyota needed to one up the competition, not just add to it.

[Deslock]

I know the BRZ is supposed to be a six speed, but if they are gonna offer a much better six speed for the STI model... hm

There have been rumors for some time that Aisin is providing the tranny and that it would get a "Miata" quality shifter. I hope that's the case because if it has a loose, rubbery, WRX-caliber shifter, I'm out.

I just can't justify buying a +23k car that does not have more than 210 hp that is rwd. It's not practical or really that affordable. It seems like bump in price for a rwd Civic SI.

This car is for people who think a $23k Civic Si would be great if it had less weight, lower COG, better weight distribution, shorter wheelbase, and RWD.

Why would you when there is a genesis turbo for about the same (about to get a refresh) and other cars for similar that have more power.

Answered.

[modifiedMR]

The Si gets a bad rap compared to it's competitors, especially the older 2.0.

2012 Honda Civic Si Coupe Road Test - Review - Car and Driver

It weighs 2864 lbs, so it's not much heavier than the 2800 they are saying for the ft86 and has about the same power (with the older 2.0 L). Really all you are getting over the Si is rwd and better weight distribution, which is the case typically for any car that is rwd vs fwd (engine is further back along with the transmission and the transfer case at the rear helps with the weight distribution). Lower COG? Maybe slight, but you won't notice it.

The speed3 and wrx just offer much more as far as performance and overall value, but I don't want fwd or awd. I would love a rwd, 2-door, wrx with a sleeker look, even if they charged a few grand more (for less of a car)!