Toyobaru talks with Scion Public Relations about Scion FR-S

[Cal]

Hey guys, I'm new here and would like to express my view on making the switch from Toyota (and a luxury brand) to Scion.

My family has owned all 4 generations of Supra including the MkIV TT, Lexus SC400 (Toyota Soarer in Japan), and I've owned the late model Celica GT-S, MR2 Spyder, MkII MR2 and MR2 Turbo. I was raised die-hard on Toyotas and was looking forward to seeing the FT-86 bring Toyota back into the game. The Toyota snob side of me is disappointed in the FR-S being a Scion.

I currently drive a G35 coupe. I've taken it apart and the quality of its parts is not up to par (at least on the chassis) as any of my past Toyota 4-bangers. Scion = Toyota in Japan so the Toyota-to-Scion switch would be lateral in terms of build quality. Going from Infiniti to Scion is an obvious downgrade in brand but if the FR-S has a touch-screen GPS, MP3 playback, Bluetooth, USB jacks, AUX port, and leather, and Toyota build quality, that would be an upgrade of features to me. To top it off, Scion pure-pricing is a lure to make that "downgrade" much less painful than buying a Toyota.

BUT, if Toyota or Subaru sneaks in a variant with a larger engine, turbo or AWD exclusive to their nameplates after the FR-S launches without any forewarning, I will be extremely disappointed and full of buyer's remorse.

Welcome to the site. Curious, what made you choose to drive a G35 and what about the parts are not up to par?

CORRECTION: I was referring to the early 60's mustang and cougar not 80's
Oh, but it's one of the fairest arguements there is. In my comparison I gave an example of how a mechanically identical car branded two different ways IN THE SAME MARKET WAS TREATED BY THE SAME MARKET. You are comparing the FRS to a car that was only sold one way in each market(US-G35 and Foreign-Skyline). The point was to demonstrate how branding the car one of two ways in the same market would affect it. I can also give you another comparison. The first gen mits eclipse and the eagle talon. More bought the identical eclipse because eagle was a newer brand and didn't have the brand power that mits had. Your example doesn't tell a company how branding a car one way or another effects its success IN THE SAME MARKET.

It is a fair argument if one assumes that the cars will be different than their ?Toyota counterparts. The talon and Mits while very very similar still do not look the same. My point is that if the cars are like the G35/Skyline and are identical except the badges then would it really matter.

If they pull a 240sx/silvia, where one car is clearly different ( see better looking lol) than it's stateside counter part then I am in total agreeance with you.

[ProZach626]

I can't believe I just wasted part of my life reading the most pointless argument ever.

[ej25ti]

I can't believe I just wasted part of my life reading the most pointless argument ever.

glad i didnt, hah!

[HyperFX]

Lol $29,999.99. Heehee. I dont have a penny now i can't buy the Angry Geko (FR-S ).

[Cal]

I can't believe I just wasted part of my life reading the most pointless argument ever.

Ha you should see it on another forum I browse, same argument 2X as long.

[Nemesis]

Welcome to the site. Curious, what made you choose to drive a G35 and what about the parts are not up to par?



It is a fair argument if one assumes that the cars will be different than their ?Toyota counterparts. The talon and Mits while very very similar still do not look the same. My point is that if the cars are like the G35/Skyline and are identical except the badges then would it really matter.

If they pull a 240sx/silvia, where one car is clearly different ( see better looking lol) than it's stateside counter part then I am in total agreeance with you.

I understand where you are coming from, but you won't find a company that will make an identical vehicle IN THE SAME MARKET badged two different ways. So my examples are the best we can use. Again, your example is identical to what toyota purposes to do with the FR-S, but it doesn't tell a company how branding the same vehicle in the same market will effect its sale. Your example tells us that if they brand it a scion in the US and a Toyota in Japan, that they will both sell in either market and the US buyers can purchase matching toyota badges. I appreciate your input.

[Cal]

I understand where you are coming from, but you won't find a company that will make an identical vehicle IN THE SAME MARKET badged two different ways. So my examples are the best we can use. Again, your example is identical to what toyota purposes to do with the FR-S, but it doesn't tell a company how branding the same vehicle in the same market will effect its sale. Your example tells us that if they brand it a scion in the US and a Toyota in Japan, that they will both sell in either market and the US buyers can purchase matching toyota badges. I appreciate your input.

I agree completely with you that in the same market the strong brand will win, Like the 98 Toyota Corrola/Chevy Prizm. Likewise on your input, it is nice to be able to have an intense yet civil discussion.

[Nemesis]

I broke out insurance on its own as item F on my list, and I did not list it as superficial.

So now somthing is superficial that directly effects something that isn't? Seems your list is talking in circles.

..That is what I read, anyway... you obviously have conflicting information.

What did I say that would make you think I have conflicting information? One more time: The premium you pay for insurance on your vehicle is based on many things - your past driving record, credit history, the company's ability to bring you a good rate(efficiency), and the pool of people that own the same make and model vehicle as you, as well as your local area. The last two directly effect the risk rating you are given when underwriting gets your information. That means that if I buy a car that is typically driven by younger drivers, my premium will be higher because, based on the typical driver of my vehicle's make and model, the assumed risk is higher. Because the make is scion which is typically driven by younger drivers, this will directly effect the premiums paid by those purchasing a scion FRS. Thus a buyers concern that an automaker markets to a young driver is not superficial.

[Cal]

What did I say that would make you think I have conflicting information? One more time: The premium you pay for insurance on your vehicle is based on many things - your past driving record, credit history, the company's ability to bring you a good rate(efficiency), and the pool of people that own the same make and model vehicle as you, as well as your local area. The last two directly effect the risk rating you are given when underwriting gets your information. That means that if I buy a car that is typically driven by younger drivers, my premium will be higher because, based on the typical driver of my vehicle's make and model, the assumed risk is higher. Because the make is scion which is typically driven by younger drivers, this will directly effect the premiums paid by those purchasing a scion FRS. Thus a buyers concern that an automaker markets to a young driver is not superficial.

Yup. Exactly how it works. I work for an insurance company is how I know. Also things such as number of doors, horsepower, whether it has a backseat or not, color, all types of things.

[Nemesis]

Thanks West! This has got to be the best site following both vehicles. It never ceases to amaze me what info you have for us next!

[Turbowned]

There are many reasons for us to be aggravated that the car will be badged as a Scion.

#1: Scions are "mono-spec" meaning they come standard with several options that could be optional on a Toyota. Options that would reduce weight and most importantly cost, something we are all very critical of.

#2. The AE86 was a Toyota. People would riot in the streets if Toyota designed a successor to the Supra and badged it a Scion! Why is it OK that they do it with the AE86? Every AE86 owner I know is appalled that they plan on calling it a Scion.

#3. Toyota, not Scion has a history of building sports cars with a racing pedigree. The 2000GT, Celica, MR2, Corolla, and Supra are all such examples. Toyota has competed in Formula One, WRC, Indy Car, Champ Car, NASCAR, JGTC, Le Mans, NHRA, IMSA GT, etc. etc. Scion, while of course being a fledgling brand, hasn't a shred of the racing prowess of Toyota.

#4. If there can be a Scion and a Subaru variant in the U.S., what's stopping them from releasing a Toyota version in the United States? There is no reason. None. Other than to enfuriate the enthusiasts.

Bottom line: we as enthusiasts want a car that can remind us of why we love Toyota in the first place. Not a heavy, slow, automatic-equipped wannabe car with a big sound system and a pile of useless accessories. I'm sorry if I'm stereotyping Scion owners here, but Scion, while being synomymous with youthful, fun vehicles, is not synonymous with performance, which is what Toyota's sports car should be focused on.

[switchlanez]

Yeah, it's such a downer not easy to look past.

I try to look past that and forward to what the car offers intrinsically. Knowing where it comes from, I try to not allow a rebadged nameplate be a dealbreaker.

Welcome to the site. Curious, what made you choose to drive a G35 and what about the parts are not up to par?

I chose it for the torquey V6, exhaust note, RWD, and sleek styling. Toyota didn't have anything close to offer and I was tired of waiting.

From taking apart the interiors, front bumpers, rear tail lights, and shocks on my past Toyotas and current G35, I notice Nissan/Infiniti uses fewer bolts to secure parts and the bolts are smaller/flimsier. Reliability issues include my fuel gauge level indicator being a bit off (I replaced it) and turn signal circuitry easily got affected by condensation. The chattering transmission, vibrating shift lever, and interior rattles are standard nuisances among G35 owners.

[hiplainsdrftr]

Scion Schmion, I don't care. It was a Ford badged Mazda hecho en Mexico that got me into driving anyway. Cars are fun! The real news here is that the price has been jacked up another 5K!

<20K = Awesome I'll buy it
<25K = Alright let's see it, I'll probably buy it
<30K = Oh, okay, let's see it and compare it to other cars in that price range and hope I don't end up with another used 240SX

PS - Hello!

[DrewsiferxXx]

I have always seen scion as toyota just like I see infinity as Nisan. As a subaru/toyota/mitsubishi owner I am very happy to see subaru and toyota engine technology come together. A 200 hp non turbo boxer almost defies labels. I hope they deliver.

[DrewsiferxXx]

I put some thought into this today, and had a minor logic breakthrough. Notice the body work on the FR-S is more dynamic than the other two concepts. And remember the reasons given for the changes on the FT-86 II... CRASH TESTS! namely pedestrian crash test concerns. Maybe the scion brand has more leeway there than Toyota. So rather than compromise the concept, and compromise Toyota's overall crash ratings, they sent the car to scion so it could be released in a form more like originally intended? Why use a boxer if a low hood line isn't a design goal, right?
I know I am reaching a bit, but maybe toyota usa said "no way, that's too cool looking" lol

[modifiedMR]

the whole "released as a scion" debate is almost mute, if like said earlier, it is just the badging. Problem is, they change all the details. I don't want some of the tacky options. That and all the standard equipment. I want the most performance and reliability I can get. Scions have the mono type models and I don't like that. I'm not too worried about the badge itself, although if there was an option, I would have the toyota because of it's racing history and prior ownership. Call me superficial. lol

My main concern is that it is built by Subaru. I don't want some new crew in a new factory putting together my first gen frs. Toyota's typically have great quality control and I wonder how much they are involved in the production process.

Oh and there are many Camaro owners who don't like Firebirds/Trans Am's and vice versa. Those cars are pretty much the same, yet you will get many people thinking they are somehow very different. Also, look at the cavalier vs sunfire. Same thing. What gets me though, is this is really not a scion vs toyota thing as this car is really a subaru marketed here as a Scion and Globally as a Toyota and then well be also released as a Subaru! I am personally waiting until I see what they do with the different models to see which I will go with.

[Deslock]

Not to bring up an old thread, but I have a little more information for anyone curious (meant to post it weeks ago, but never got around to it).

What did I say that would make you think I have conflicting information?

I wrote: "My understanding is that average Scion rates are higher because the average owner is younger and some Scions have poorer crash test ratings". You replied that who a brand is marketed to affects the insurance cost for vehicles of that brand. I responded that I don't doubt you, but that isn't what I've read.

The premium you pay for insurance on your vehicle is based on many things - your past driving record, credit history, the company's ability to bring you a good rate(efficiency), and the pool of people that own the same make and model vehicle as you, as well as your local area. The last two directly effect the risk rating you are given when underwriting gets your information.

I don't disagree with any of that, except I wasn't sure if/how much "the pool of people that own the same make" has an effect.

I actually called my insurance agent about something unrelated, and right as I was about to hang up, asked if the average buyers' age, gender, etc of a brand affects the insurance cost for all models on that brand. She laughed and said no. I asked if that meant that two cars that are completely identical except for brand would cost different amounts for a given person to insure. She said all other things being equal, only if the value of both cars were different.

She said driver age and record are factors and type of vehicle and vehicle value are factors. But brand itself, other than how it affects cost/value, is not.

I thought that perhaps she didn't know what she was talking about, but I PMed an insurance insider on this forum, and he confirmed the same thing.

So based on what I've been told by those in the know, and what I've read elsewhere, brand does not affect insurance cost for a given driver and location, all else being equal.

So now somthing is superficial that directly effects something that isn't? Seems your list is talking in circles.

*shrug*

The reason I broke out increased insurance is that the vast majority of the complaints I read about Scion being a youth brand were disparaging towards the brand's image and those that buy it. There are 420 posts at Scion FT-86 FR-S - Scion FR-S Forum | Toyota FT-86 Forum | Subaru 216a Forum | ft86club and only one mentioned insurance (and another person replied that only the tC has higher than average insurance, and only because it's a coupe).

So this whole argument is somewhat beside the point. Even if you're right and everything I've read elsewhere is wrong, and if what my insurance agent said is wrong, and if what the insurance insider on the forum PMed me is wrong, it's still pretty obvious that most of the complaints (about the FT86 being sold as a Scion) have to do with brand image and/or not wanting to be associated with other Scion owners.

While others worry about such superficial matters, I'll enjoy driving my Toyobaru, regardless of which brand I get.

[upsdude]

if you like it buy it-if you're so butthurt it's branded a scion then get a genesis for christ sake lol.

[Cal]

^Welcome. Genesis are hot, but I would rather the FR-S myself.

[Nemesis]

Not to bring up an old thread, but I have a little more information for anyone curious (meant to post it weeks ago, but never got around to it).


I wrote: "My understanding is that average Scion rates are higher because the average owner is younger and some Scions have poorer crash test ratings". You replied that who a brand is marketed to affects the insurance cost for vehicles of that brand. I responded that I don't doubt you, but that isn't what I've read.


I don't disagree with any of that, except I wasn't sure if/how much "the pool of people that own the same make" has an effect.

I actually called my insurance agent about something unrelated, and right as I was about to hang up, asked if the average buyers' age, gender, etc of a brand affects the insurance cost for all models on that brand. She laughed and said no. I asked if that meant that two cars that are completely identical except for brand would cost different amounts for a given person to insure. She said all other things being equal, only if the value of both cars were different.

She said driver age and record are factors and type of vehicle and vehicle value are factors. But brand itself, other than how it affects cost/value, is not.

I thought that perhaps she didn't know what she was talking about, but I PMed an insurance insider on this forum, and he confirmed the same thing.

So based on what I've been told by those in the know, and what I've read elsewhere, brand does not affect insurance cost for a given driver and location, all else being equal.


*shrug*

The reason I broke out increased insurance is that the vast majority of the complaints I read about Scion being a youth brand were disparaging towards the brand's image and those that buy it. There are 420 posts at Scion FT-86 FR-S - Scion FR-S Forum | Toyota FT-86 Forum | Subaru 216a Forum | ft86club and only one mentioned insurance (and another person replied that only the tC has higher than average insurance, and only because it's a coupe).

So this whole argument is somewhat beside the point. Even if you're right and everything I've read elsewhere is wrong, and if what my insurance agent said is wrong, and if what the insurance insider on the forum PMed me is wrong, it's still pretty obvious that most of the complaints (about the FT86 being sold as a Scion) have to do with brand image and/or not wanting to be associated with other Scion owners.

While others worry about such superficial matters, I'll enjoy driving my Toyobaru, regardless of which brand I get.

I find it humorous that you'd been working on a comeback for almost 2 months. Hoping I'd miss the response, or just that slow? I'm not sure how else to tell you: An agent knows only what the company tells them about a product. Most agents just enter your data into the company intranet site and pray that they can give you a good enough rate that you'll buy. They are further limited by what they care to remember and what their customers want to hear. When you talk to the agent you're talking to the furthest person down the chain that there is. I am the guy that creates the product they sell to you based on the year make and model of your vehicle. Underwriters then assess your premiums based on my guidelines and give the yes/no answer to the agent. I have explained this as many times as I care to explain it. I have given you the real answer from the source, you're wasting your time trying to find answers from end users and I'm wasting my time with this dribble. Truly you don't want the correct answer, you just want to be right. And therefore I accept the fact that you are driven only for this reason and not for a real answer, and will leave you to wallow in your pitiful insecurities. End of discussion.

[Deslock]

I find it humorous that you'd been working on a comeback for almost 2 months. Hoping I'd miss the response, or just that slow? I'm not sure how else to tell you: An agent knows only what the company tells them about a product. Most agents just enter your data into the company intranet site and pray that they can give you a good enough rate that you'll buy. They are further limited by what they care to remember and what their customers want to hear. When you talk to the agent you're talking to the furthest person down the chain that there is. I am the guy that creates the product they sell to you based on the year make and model of your vehicle. Underwriters then assess your premiums based on my guidelines and give the yes/no answer to the agent. I have explained this as many times as I care to explain it. I have given you the real answer from the source, you're wasting your time trying to find answers from end users and I'm wasting my time with this dribble. Truly you don't want the correct answer, you just want to be right. And therefore I accept the fact that you are driven only for this reason and not for a real answer, and will leave you to wallow in your pitiful insecurities. End of discussion.

I simply don't come here often (23 posts in 21 months). Note that what you quoted was my first post at this site since my previous reply in this thread.

BTW, I find it humorous that you find it humorous that I didn't reply for 8 weeks, when you yourself didn't reply for 10 weeks.

Anyway, I have no vested interest in wanting "to be right" (as you put it) since I never claimed you're wrong, only that what you posted is not in line with what I've been told and have read elsewhere. As I wrote before:

I wrote: "My understanding is that average Scion rates are higher because the average owner is younger and some Scions have poorer crash test ratings". You replied that who a brand is marketed to affects the insurance cost for vehicles of that brand. I responded that I don't doubt you, but that isn't what I've read.

I've simply been asking questions because I'm genuinely curious:

Out of curiosity, how much more will insurance cost for the same driver for a Scion vs an equivalent Toyota vehicle? I'm not doubting you, but again my understanding is that average Scion rates are higher because the average owner is younger and some Scions have poorer crash test ratings. That is what I read, anyway

You didn't answer my question, and throughout this thread you've been confrontational, condescending, and insulting while I've tried to keep things constructive.

[Cal]

Deslock, Nemesis, if you want to continue this convo take it to PM's. No need for it in this thread.