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  1. #1

    Post Toyobaru talks with Scion Public Relations about Scion FR-S

    We had a chance this afternoon to sit down with a few Scion public relations members to discuss the new Scion FR-S that debuted today at the New York International Auto Show 2011. Read below for the summary of the interview. Enjoy!



    ______________

    During the press conference it as stated the car will be released in 2012, can you be more specific as when it will be available for sale in the United States?

    Right now we cannot confirm nor estimate exact availability. Obviously there have been a lot of changes going on in Japan (Earthquake). However right now its to early to report.

    What is going to change from the Concept model that we saw today?

    Obviously there will be changes, this is only a concept. We expect the production version to be just as dynamic and beautiful of a car. The final production version will be not only inspirational to look at, but also to drive.

    Pricing is a huge aspect to this cars success, its been portrayed as the next AE86 which was once an affordable sporty car to many. What is the target price range for the Scion FR-S?

    At this point its still very early, we typically set prices before the car actually goes on sale. We are saying that the car will be under 30k, as we get closer to launching the car next year we will set pricing.

    Will there be a Enthusiast model with LSD, Bigger Brakes, and less convenience packages?

    All of our Scion models come mono spec. So the mono spec will be our enthusiast model. We want our customers to have a well equipped and car that performs well at its base level. Like all Scions, we will offer performance and appearance oriented accessories for our customers to make it their own.

    Will there be a Toyota form of the FR-S released in the United States?

    The car will be sold globally as Toyota, however in United States and Canada there will only be the Scion FR-S.

    What will the horsepower rating will the Scion FR-S receive at production?

    We haven't finalized any of that, and we will release that info at a later date.

    Is there a target weight that the Scion FR-S is aiming towards?

    The car will be lightweight. Right now its still to early to finalize those specs.

    Will there be a factory turbo car, or will Scion offer add-on turbo packages for the FR-S?

    We have to announce the production version before we are able to talk about any definitive accessory plans such as superchargers, turbos, or anything like that.


    Who do you feel is your biggest competition in regards to the Scion FR-S, what cars do you anticipate will compete with it?

    This car will be unique from a competitive standpoint. There is obviously a lot of cars that compete in this category. Our expectations for this car are that it will be very well balanced car with good power to weight ratio. We also see some competitors in the MPG space. Although when you look at the Scion FR-S as a total package, we feel its going to carve out a unique space within the set.


    Enthusiasts are obviously a large market for this car, how will modifications affect the factory warranty?

    As with all Scions, we have many accessories options that do not void the warranty of our cars. We realize that a lot of aftermarket companies will want to come to the table and build accessories for this car. If you buy an aftermarket item they are obviously not warrantied, and so its not covered under the factory warranty.

    I heard Scion and Toyota is looking for a drifting team to adopt the Scion FR-S, has anyone been selected or is Scion pursing anyone in particular for the FR-S?

    Certainly the work we have done with the tC has helped us establish ourselves in several categories of racing. Its still to early in the process so we haven't identified anyone at this time. Closer to production we will see how Scion will incorporate the FR-S into racing.


    When the FR-S is released, how will the rollout be distributed? Since this is a RWD sports car that doesn't fair well in colder climates will it be available everywhere in the US?

    It will be a national launch, the car will be available throughout the US.

    What do you feel about some of the negativity surrounding the Scion branding of the FT-86 in the US?

    We are really excited about it being a Scion. We think we have an opportunity to stretch the brand in new ways and when we talk about Scion being unique, distinctive and fun to drive. This car really delivers that. There is nothing else out there on the marketplace that looks like it. We hope that it will carve out its own space in the category. It allows us to go after a new set of buyers that we haven't been able to reach. Our customers have been asking for a RWD car and we will be able to deliver on that.

  2. #2
    This is awesome. I bet that must have been a great experience. As always got to love the corporate answers.

    I wonder if Toyota will pull a Nissan Silvia and give the JDM/EDM versions different aero than the USDM.
    Team Scoobie Member

    Quote Originally Posted by modifiedMR View Post
    Naw, "bang for the buck" as in performance. I'd rather than and need a shot of penicillin.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by West View Post
    What do you feel about some of the negativity surrounding the Scion branding of the FT-86 in the US?

    We are really excited about it being a Scion. We think we have an opportunity to stretch the brand in new ways and when we talk about Scion being unique, distinctive and fun to drive. This car really delivers that. There is nothing else out there on the marketplace that looks like it. We hope that it will carve out its own space in the category. It allows us to go after a new set of buyers that we haven't been able to reach. Our customers have been asking for a RWD car and we will be able to deliver on that.
    Has there really been negative feedback about the car being branded as a Scion? As long as the car is being sold in the U.S., I don't think whether it is sold as a Scion or Toyota matters. Personally, I would lean toward buying the Subaru version (currently own a Legacy).

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Phenol View Post
    Has there really been negative feedback about the car being branded as a Scion? As long as the car is being sold in the U.S., I don't think whether it is sold as a Scion or Toyota matters. Personally, I would lean toward buying the Subaru version (currently own a Legacy).
    There has been some, but honestly the fans whom see past brands are the real enthusiasts that recognize truly great cars no matter the brand. As I said before, Scion and any preconceptions of their brand died today. The company is expanding and its added the greatest possible car to its lineup. Their focus is on new and exciting cars. Enthusiasts might not like their past lineup, but I don't think a single person can knock their cars as bad products. I commend them for building a brand that appeals to the outside the box consumer. After all, that's exactly what their brand and the FR-S represent.

    Only thing I want to see is what factory options are available in the Toyota form FT-86 vs the Scion FR-S. I hope Scion doesn't get it wrong by not releasing a Turbo variant.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Phenol
    Has there really been negative feedback about the car being branded as a Scion? As long as the car is being sold in the U.S., I don't think whether it is sold as a Scion or Toyota matters. Personally, I would lean toward buying the Subaru version (currently own a Legacy).
    I drive an SW20 (MR2 Turbo), and several friends with other Toyota sports cars. Most of the people I've talked to are upset it's being called a Scion (myself included). We are Toyota enthusiasts, not Scion. We have Toyota MR2's, Celica's, All-Tracs, and Supras. They aren't Scions. We could care less for the tC, xA, xB, or xD. I think the real slap in the face is that they fell the need to call it a Scion here in North America, and a Toyota everywhere else. If they want to call it a Scion, then go all in to make it a Scion. Launch the brand globally and call it a Scion everywhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by West View Post
    There has been some, but honestly the fans whom see past brands are the real enthusiasts that recognize truly great cars no matter the brand. As I said before, Scion and any preconceptions of their brand died today. The company is expanding and its added the greatest possible car to its lineup. Their focus is on new and exciting cars. Enthusiasts might not like their past lineup, but I don't think a single person can knock their cars as bad products. I commend them for building a brand that appeals to the outside the box consumer. After all, that's exactly what their brand and the FR-S represent.

    Only thing I want to see is what factory options are available in the Toyota form FT-86 vs the Scion FR-S. I hope Scion doesn't get it wrong by not releasing a Turbo variant.
    I'd be surprised if Scion releases a turbo variant. They've never built a car with different engine trims and different trim line options. Since it's a Toyota globally, there is a chance. However, since Scion's PR people told you that they have one, "mono" trim line, I'd guess that means no turbo engined version from Scion.

    Honestly, my impression of Scion doesn't change with this. It's still a cheesy youth brand. If they rolled this car out globally as a Scion, maybe the impression would chance since the car would be a Scion, everywhere...but with Asia, Europe and Australia getting a Toyota badged car, it's just a wolf in sheep's clothing: it's just a Toyota re-badged to try and strengthen a struggling brand. If they want to call it a Scion, go all in...everywhere.

    At least I'll be able to pick up the EDM/JDM parts and rebadge it as a Toyota

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by eckoman View Post
    I drive an SW20 (MR2 Turbo), and several friends with other Toyota sports cars.
    Congrats.

    Most of the people I've talked to are upset it's being called a Scion (myself included).
    That's odd. Most of the people I've talked to either aren't aware, don't care about cars much, or are glad there's going to be another good sporty car on the market.

    We are Toyota enthusiasts, not Scion.
    What is the source of your enthusiasm? If it's something like "I like their cars because they're well-thought out and well-made" - in other words, if it's about cars - then that enthusiasm will transfer to Scion when the well-made FR-S is produced. If it's not about cars, then it won't.

    We have Toyota MR2's, Celica's, All-Tracs, and Supras. They aren't Scions. We could care less for the tC, xA, xB, or xD.
    Nobody's asking you to care about the tC, xA, xB, or xD. They're asking you to care about the FR-S. Which, if you care about well-made cars, it seems you should.

    I think the real slap in the face is that they fell the need to call it a Scion here in North America, and a Toyota everywhere else. If they want to call it a Scion, then go all in to make it a Scion. Launch the brand globally and call it a Scion everywhere.
    Why?

    Honestly, my impression of Scion doesn't change with this. It's still a cheesy youth brand. If they rolled this car out globally as a Scion, maybe the impression would chance since the car would be a Scion, everywhere
    Are you familiar with how brands work?

    ...but with Asia, Europe and Australia getting a Toyota badged car, it's just a wolf in sheep's clothing: it's just a Toyota re-badged to try and strengthen a struggling brand. If they want to call it a Scion, go all in...everywhere.
    It's going to be a Toyota vehicle no matter what company sells it. Toyota owns Scion.

  7. #7
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    Lol. I still think it's funny that people are "upset" that it's a Scion.

    Anyway, thanks West, that interview was fantastic. Obviously he provided the standard fair corporate answers, but there is some depth to some of it as well.

    Thanks again for the interview. I truly enjoyed it.

  8. #8
    + 1 to Messiah

    I wonder if they will do it like the TC have a top tier version with a turbo option? Technically it's a super charger for the tc but I think they would know better than to do that.
    Team Scoobie Member

    Quote Originally Posted by modifiedMR View Post
    Naw, "bang for the buck" as in performance. I'd rather than and need a shot of penicillin.

  9. #9
    This will be a great platform to swap a 2GR-FSE into in a few years. Might be a wee bit of an issue with the hoodline.

  10. #10
    Q: What do you feel about some of the negativity surrounding the Scion branding of the FT-86 in the US?

    A: Only a superficial idiot would get upset that a mechanically identical model is being released by a subsidiary brand.

  11. #11
    I'VE wrote them. and "with a price under 30k" i'm not taking one from the dealership until they remove the scion badges onsite. they took something that could be a brilliant way to bring the fun back and something affordable in this"MPG" based society and basically put off 30% of people stoked on it with wallets open. I hope subaru does a better job. otherwise i'll just put 15k into my fc or buy a 350 or 370 z or a g35

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by JimK View Post
    This will be a great platform to swap a 2GR-FSE into in a few years. Might be a wee bit of an issue with the hoodline.
    Welcome to the site.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deslock View Post
    Q: What do you feel about some of the negativity surrounding the Scion branding of the FT-86 in the US?

    A: Only a superficial idiot would get upset that a mechanically identical model is being released by a subsidiary brand.
    lol agreed fully.

    Quote Originally Posted by whiteknight View Post
    I'VE wrote them. and "with a price under 30k" i'm not taking one from the dealership until they remove the scion badges onsite. they took something that could be a brilliant way to bring the fun back and something affordable in this"MPG" based society and basically put off 30% of people stoked on it with wallets open. I hope subaru does a better job. otherwise i'll just put 15k into my fc or buy a 350 or 370 z or a g35
    Welcome, what would you think if you could dealer order the Toyota badges.
    Team Scoobie Member

    Quote Originally Posted by modifiedMR View Post
    Naw, "bang for the buck" as in performance. I'd rather than and need a shot of penicillin.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Deslock View Post
    Q: What do you feel about some of the negativity surrounding the Scion branding of the FT-86 in the US?

    A: Only a superficial idiot would get upset that a mechanically identical model is being released by a subsidiary brand.
    Yeah, like the 80s mercury cougar that was mechanically identical to the mustang. Why did people buy the mustang and not the cougar if the cougar was the same thing? Brands hold power and the trust of the customer. People had previous experience with the mustang. The same goes for geos and their copy cats. Who wants a geo? It's silly to argue that the name toyota means nothing and that those that are disppointed with the badging of the FR-S as a scion are unfounded. As a customer gets older they find a brand that is a good investment and stick with it. Many people have found this with Toyota. Scion hasn't earned this respect. It is a young company that is trying to prove itself - and at the same time redefine itself. Scion has the right to prove itself. But for people to say that others don't have the right to stay loyal to a brand is thoughtless. Toyota doesn't want to lose it's loyal customers, it just wants to shift the performance minded customers to scion. There is bound to be growing pains, but everyone has the right to complain when a company tries to tell a customer what the customer should like. I for one, wanted this to be a toyota as well. Yes it is rebadged, but I am not a teenager and I feel scion has not been a performance minded brand, but a youthful one. When I buy a car I want a car that doesn't carry a high insurance penalty because it is driven by teenagers. Badging this car as a scion puts it in the insurance penalty box. Badging it a toyota would not have set it in the same category. Toyota is probably hoping the price point will keep it out of most first year drivers hands, but within their sights as a step up from the Tc. Here's to hoping the insurance isn't too bad.

  14. #14
    i'm not really upset it's a scion, but i'd rather it be badged a toyota. WHY? i'm not a big fan of their airdam styling. that's the only thing that isn't so great on this model is the front airdam/grill area. some minor tweaks it it would be much better.

    that said, the symbol isn't the same. period. it sounds lame, but it's like having a ES350 or a v6 camry. the "status" of toyota is better than scion.

    don't get me wrong, i do like some of their cars from an economic stand point (older xB's, xD and the newer tC's), but they don't have that history that toyota does. who wants the "subsidiary?"

    regardless, to me, this is a new trick subie, sponsored by toyota. lol. i'll buy the subie if it gets a lil better performance in that trim/model. with them now saying "under 30k" instead of "under 25k," it may be awhile before I can afford one.
    91 hardtop mr2 turbo

  15. #15
    Amen Messiah and kudos to Nemesis for providing valid reasoning against the badge-ing of this beauty.

    Obviously from all the interviews and press conference, they dropped the "affordable" sports idea in attempts to target older enthusiasts with deeper pockets. It think the idea is great to keep the kiddies away and of course this car will be their flagship so, expect to pay a pretty penny. I'm hoping it will stay below 25K, we shall see.

  16. #16
    Just remember in Japan there is no Lexus or Scion so they have lived with the Toyota cars for a long time. They recognize price points with quality of the car. A $50,000 Toyota does not compare to a $12,000 Toyata. But in the end its still Toyata quality, fine craftsmanship and a dependable engine.
    So in my opinion its all the same to me: Lexus-Toyota -Scion=Toyata with different prices.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by HyperFX View Post
    Just remember in Japan there is no Lexus or Scion
    They started offering Lexus in Japan circa 2005.

    If the car preforms well and the number of enthusiasts grow, people will slowly stop caring and the lines between the two badges will evolve into the Honda = Acura mentality. I see a whole bunch of teens and jackasses driving Honda's and old fucks driving Acura's but, does it sway people from buying say, an S2000 or an NSX? I don't think so.
    Last edited by HakosukaBunta; 04-22-2011 at 12:03 PM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by HakosukaBunta View Post
    They started offering Lexus in Japan circa 2005.
    Oops, I meant the Japanese dometic market before 2005. Thanks for the catch.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by whiteknight View Post
    I'VE wrote them. and "with a price under 30k" i'm not taking one from the dealership until they remove the scion badges onsite. they took something that could be a brilliant way to bring the fun back and something affordable in this"MPG" based society and basically put off 30% of people stoked on it with wallets open. I hope subaru does a better job. otherwise i'll just put 15k into my fc or buy a 350 or 370 z or a g35
    I agree, I was pretty upset they badged it a Scion. At 20K, maybe. At under 30K, they'll have to change Scion's brand imaging to justify that price point with the older crowd. This car could have re-established the Toyota brand, and it could have held it's own among Toyota's other legendary sports cars. It looks like it will still do that globally for Toyota, just not in NA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cal View Post
    Welcome, what would you think if you could dealer order the Toyota badges.
    Honestly, that's not needed. The VIN still says Scion, and it's still registered and titled as a Scion so it's still a Scion here. If Toyota was a to do that, they'd be better off offering two variants of it: A Toyota badged one and a Scion badged variant (similar to the 350Z/G35 Coupe and 370Z/G37 Coupe).

    However if it's the badging on the car which upsets people and not the titling/registration aspect, people shouldn't have any issues badging it as a Toyota. Since the rest of the world gets it as a Toyota, just pick up the JDM/EDM/Australian front bumper, rear piece, exterior emblems, engine cover and airbag. All that's left is the headunit, and that's nothing a nice aftermarket double din Nav unit can't solve (or you could source the JDM/EDM piece like some Honda guys do for the Integra). It's just like the Honda guys who rebadge their Acura Integra's and Acura RSX's here as a Honda Integra using the JDM parts.

    I hate to admit it, but unless Subaru comes out with a turbocharged version, this is something I'll consider doing: Rebadging it as a Toyota with the JDM/EDM parts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Messiah View Post
    Congrats.

    That's odd. Most of the people I've talked to either aren't aware, don't care about cars much, or are glad there's going to be another good sporty car on the market.

    What is the source of your enthusiasm? If it's something like "I like their cars because they're well-thought out and well-made" - in other words, if it's about cars - then that enthusiasm will transfer to Scion when the well-made FR-S is produced. If it's not about cars, then it won't.

    Nobody's asking you to care about the tC, xA, xB, or xD. They're asking you to care about the FR-S. Which, if you care about well-made cars, it seems you should.

    Why?

    Are you familiar with how brands work?

    It's going to be a Toyota vehicle no matter what company sells it. Toyota owns Scion.
    I am familiar with how brands work. Learn marketing, go major in it and get back to me. It's called brand imaging, and if you knew marketing, you'd know the Scion brand and Toyota brand are marketed 100% different. They are different brands, marketed to crowds, their placement on a marketing map is completely different. Also know brand loyalty does not transfer to a new brand just because the parent brand has loyalty. The new brand has to EARN that loyalty among it's customer base. It's basic marketing. Pontiac didn't have the loyalty of the Chevy crowd, Mercury doesn't have the loyalty of the Ford crowd. Same parent company, different brands. Toyota and Scion may not have the Loyalty of all Lexus owners, and Scion won't have the loyalty of all Lexus and Toyota owners.

    I just dislike Scion. In the show scene, the Scion owners are pretty darn cocky, and it gets annoying. The Toyota guys tend to be more laid back, more helpful and more respecting of other cars. The attitude issue isn't there. I think one of the main fears is that badging it as a Scion will attract the same people with the attitude issues we've seen with other Scions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis View Post
    Yeah, like the 80s mercury cougar that was mechanically identical to the mustang. Why did people buy the mustang and not the cougar if the cougar was the same thing? Brands hold power and the trust of the customer. People had previous experience with the mustang. The same goes for geos and their copy cats. Who wants a geo? It's silly to argue that the name toyota means nothing and that those that are disppointed with the badging of the FR-S as a scion are unfounded. As a customer gets older they find a brand that is a good investment and stick with it. Many people have found this with Toyota. Scion hasn't earned this respect. It is a young company that is trying to prove itself - and at the same time redefine itself. Scion has the right to prove itself. But for people to say that others don't have the right to stay loyal to a brand is thoughtless. Toyota doesn't want to lose it's loyal customers, it just wants to shift the performance minded customers to scion. There is bound to be growing pains, but everyone has the right to complain when a company tries to tell a customer what the customer should like. I for one, wanted this to be a toyota as well. Yes it is rebadged, but I am not a teenager and I feel scion has not been a performance minded brand, but a youthful one. When I buy a car I want a car that doesn't carry a high insurance penalty because it is driven by teenagers. Badging this car as a scion puts it in the insurance penalty box. Badging it a toyota would not have set it in the same category. Toyota is probably hoping the price point will keep it out of most first year drivers hands, but within their sights as a step up from the Tc. Here's to hoping the insurance isn't too bad.
    Thank you, that is EXACTLY it. Well put. We've had Toyota's in my family since the 1970's. We had one Scion briefly, and it just wasn't the same. It's brand loyalty. I understand the marketing of it, but to me Scion just isn't Toyota, just like Mercury isn't Ford. As with you, I'm not a teenager. I'm in my 30's, and don't care for the youthful branding of Scion. Toyota is a long established brand, and the brand image was set years ago.Toyota North America has every right to brand the Scion brand and brand the car as a Scion in an effort to build the brand. However, people have a right to like or dislike that decision, as you said. Brand loyalty is a complex topic.

    Even more complex is earning brand loyalty among new brands. I admit this is something Scion hasn't done well. It was suppose to be Toyota's performance brand, and instead it's really been branded the "youthful brand" (which is ironic, considering how many older people drive the xB's due to great visibility). I'll give Scion props for this: at least they are clearly still trying to build it as a performance brand in terms of what they sell. The whole RWD drift Scion thing didn't win me over, as you can't buy one. If they are serious about trying to build the performance aspect of the brand and get from the current image, this is probably the best Toyota vehicle to do it with. Honestly, if they want to brand this as a Scion in NA, they should launch Scion globally and brand this car as a Scion worldwide.

    Quote Originally Posted by modifiedMR View Post
    i'm not really upset it's a scion, but i'd rather it be badged a toyota. WHY? i'm not a big fan of their airdam styling. that's the only thing that isn't so great on this model is the front airdam/grill area. some minor tweaks it it would be much better.

    that said, the symbol isn't the same. period. it sounds lame, but it's like having a ES350 or a v6 camry. the "status" of toyota is better than scion.

    don't get me wrong, i do like some of their cars from an economic stand point (older xB's, xD and the newer tC's), but they don't have that history that toyota does. who wants the "subsidiary?"

    regardless, to me, this is a new trick subie, sponsored by toyota. lol. i'll buy the subie if it gets a lil better performance in that trim/model. with them now saying "under 30k" instead of "under 25k," it may be awhile before I can afford one.
    Again, that's it. A lexus ES350 has better status than a Toyota Camry, and a Toyota is better than a Scion. It's all brand imaging and brand marketing, as I said above. As a brand, Toyota has a rich sports car history, as a brand Scion has none. For the last several years, the thought of contuning that Toyota history with a new Toyota branded car got some of us excited. Branding is a Scion in NA just took me and some others by surprised. As you said, Scion doesn't have that rich history so that aspect is gone. It might be a great sports car, like the Honda S2000, but like the S2000 it's not a Toyota (here), so that history aspect is gone. In the end, it's all marketing. It's brand loyalty vs brand imaging. Scion wants to build up the brand image, and this car can hopefully do that for them.

    Scion has every right to try and build the brand with performance, as I said. I just wish they'd do it with a car which was a purpose build Scion.

    Quote Originally Posted by HyperFX View Post
    Just remember in Japan there is no Lexus or Scion so they have lived with the Toyota cars for a long time. They recognize price points with quality of the car. A $50,000 Toyota does not compare to a $12,000 Toyata. But in the end its still Toyata quality, fine craftsmanship and a dependable engine.
    So in my opinion its all the same to me: Lexus-Toyota -Scion=Toyata with different prices.
    As was said above, Toyota has offered the Lexus brand in Japan for a long time. Their only brand not offered worldwide now is Scion. Honestly, if they are badging this car as a Scion in NA, they should badge it as a Scion worldwide and launch the brand globally. Regardless of my or anyone elses opinion on this being badged a Scion, this car is the perfect car to launch Scion as a global brand with.

    Here's a link to the Lexus Japan site.

    LEXUS Japan
    Last edited by eckoman; 04-22-2011 at 03:00 PM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis View Post
    Yeah, like the 80s mercury cougar that was mechanically identical to the mustang. Why did people buy the mustang and not the cougar if the cougar was the same thing? Brands hold power and the trust of the customer. People had previous experience with the mustang. The same goes for geos and their copy cats.
    That is not really a fair argument, as the cars are mechanically identical but not really identical. It's comparing apples to oranges. That is like saying an ES300 is the same as a toyota Camry. They are not. A better comparison would be the Infiniti G35 and the Nissan Skyline V35.

    Both cars are identical. Except for the badges and minor styling. Excluding different trims like below.




    I understand some cars look a lot different from their overseas counter parts,(silvia, integra), some however don't look that much different, maybe just slightly altered front and rear fascia or an exclusive wing or different tails.

    Now my question to all the "oh no it's a scion" people. If the cars are like this, identical in EVERY way except for maybe an aero change or a badge change, would it then matter?
    Team Scoobie Member

    Quote Originally Posted by modifiedMR View Post
    Naw, "bang for the buck" as in performance. I'd rather than and need a shot of penicillin.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Cal View Post
    That is not really a fair argument, as the cars are mechanically identical but not really identical. It's comparing apples to oranges. That is like saying an ES300 is the same as a toyota Camry. They are not. A better comparison would be the Infiniti G35 and the Nissan Skyline V35.

    Both cars are identical. Except for the badges and minor styling. Excluding different trims like below.




    I understand some cars look a lot different from their overseas counter parts,(silvia, integra), some however don't look that much different, maybe just slightly altered front and rear fascia or an exclusive wing or different tails.

    Now my question to all the "oh no it's a scion" people. If the cars are like this, identical in EVERY way except for maybe an aero change or a badge change, would it then matter?
    That would be much better if they did that. Then I'd probably just re-badge it with the JDM/EDM badging, as la the G35/Skyline guys, the 240SX/180SX-Silvia guys, and the Acura Integra-Acura RSX/Honda Integra guys. There's just something about dropping $25K and then KNOWING your going to rebadge it the next day that's annoying. It goes back to your comment: I just wish manufacturers would do away with different brands.

  22. #22
    I'm not saying there are no good reasons for brand loyalty. I'm partial to Mazda myself because despite being a small company, they still build cars like the MX5 and RX8. But if they ever decided to launch a subsidiary brand for marketing reasons, it wouldn't matter to me in the slightest as it would still be the same company.

    Stepping through some reasons people might prefer brand 1 over brand 2:

    A) brand 1 had better quality than brand 2
    B) brand 1 has better dealerships / service departments than brand 2
    C) no brand 2 dealerships nearby
    D) brand 1 is more socially and/or environmentally responsible
    E) brand 1 has richer heritage (racing, etc)
    F) brand 2 will mean higher insurance
    G) brand 2 owners tend to be douchebags
    H) brand 1/2 cars are marketed to certain groups (yuppies, rednecks, the affluent, etc)
    I) brand 1/2 cars are marketed to certain ages (young, old, etc)
    J) brand 2 is overpriced
    K) brand 2 cars tend to be ugly

    How these apply to the Scion FRS vs the Toyota FT86:

    A) N/A since Scion = rebranded Toyota and FRS = FT86 mechanically
    B) Maybe applicable (though many dealerships are both Toyota and Scion and also has not yet been mentioned in thread that I've seen)
    C) See answer to B
    D) N/A since Scion = rebranded Toyota
    E) N/A since Scion = rebranded Toyota
    F) My understanding is that average Scion rates are higher because the average owner is younger and some Scions have poorer crash test ratings.
    G) Superficial concern
    H) Superficial concern
    I) Superficial concern
    J) N/A since Scion is not generally more expensive than Toyota
    K) Superficial concern, also N/A since the FRS is not ugly (at least compared to the FT86-MkII)

    There may be others I haven't seen or thought of, but from that list the only reasons to be upset (over the Toyobaru launching as a Scion) are superficial, with the exception of local dealership experience or location. And that doesn't appear to be the complaint people are making (I might be the only one who mentioned it in this thread).

    Putting it another way, I'm not criticizing people for rebranding their car as IDGAF. The truth is that we all do superficial things now and then. But it's silly to get upset over something like that.

  23. #23
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    Yeah, non of this changes the fact that the car is still a RWD coupe and THAT is what I've been waiting for. Not just from Toyota but from anyone. I like the Gen Coupe, but don't love it. I have a feeling the second gen or mid-cycle refresh Gen coupe will trip my trigger a little more.

    Now if Nissan would just get off their ass and stop messing around with the Leaf and build us a new SX I'd be happy.

    So, again, for me, just as I've said on this forum since the begining....I could care less what the call it, or how they badge it. All I care about is that it's RWD, a coupe, and is under $30k.

    Everyone can continue their complaining. Carry on.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Cal View Post
    That is not really a fair argument, as the cars are mechanically identical but not really identical. It's comparing apples to oranges. That is like saying an ES300 is the same as a toyota Camry. They are not. A better comparison would be the Infiniti G35 and the Nissan Skyline V35.

    Both cars are identical. Except for the badges and minor styling. Excluding different trims like below.




    I understand some cars look a lot different from their overseas counter parts,(silvia, integra), some however don't look that much different, maybe just slightly altered front and rear fascia or an exclusive wing or different tails.

    Now my question to all the "oh no it's a scion" people. If the cars are like this, identical in EVERY way except for maybe an aero change or a badge change, would it then matter?
    CORRECTION: I was referring to the early 60's mustang and cougar not 80's
    Oh, but it's one of the fairest arguements there is. In my comparison I gave an example of how a mechanically identical car branded two different ways IN THE SAME MARKET WAS TREATED BY THE SAME MARKET. You are comparing the FRS to a car that was only sold one way in each market(US-G35 and Foreign-Skyline). The point was to demonstrate how branding the car one of two ways in the same market would affect it. I can also give you another comparison. The first gen mits eclipse and the eagle talon. More bought the identical eclipse because eagle was a newer brand and didn't have the brand power that mits had. Your example doesn't tell a company how branding a car one way or another effects its success IN THE SAME MARKET.
    Last edited by Nemesis; 04-24-2011 at 04:00 PM.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Deslock View Post
    I'm not saying there are no good reasons for brand loyalty. I'm partial to Mazda myself because despite being a small company, they still build cars like the MX5 and RX8. But if they ever decided to launch a subsidiary brand for marketing reasons, it wouldn't matter to me in the slightest as it would still be the same company.

    Stepping through some reasons people might prefer brand 1 over brand 2:

    A) brand 1 had better quality than brand 2
    B) brand 1 has better dealerships / service departments than brand 2
    C) no brand 2 dealerships nearby
    D) brand 1 is more socially and/or environmentally responsible
    E) brand 1 has richer heritage (racing, etc)
    F) brand 2 will mean higher insurance
    G) brand 2 owners tend to be douchebags
    H) brand 1/2 cars are marketed to certain groups (yuppies, rednecks, the affluent, etc)
    I) brand 1/2 cars are marketed to certain ages (young, old, etc)
    J) brand 2 is overpriced
    K) brand 2 cars tend to be ugly

    How these apply to the Scion FRS vs the Toyota FT86:

    A) N/A since Scion = rebranded Toyota and FRS = FT86 mechanically
    B) Maybe applicable (though many dealerships are both Toyota and Scion and also has not yet been mentioned in thread that I've seen)
    C) See answer to B
    D) N/A since Scion = rebranded Toyota
    E) N/A since Scion = rebranded Toyota
    F) My understanding is that average Scion rates are higher because the average owner is younger and some Scions have poorer crash test ratings.
    G) Superficial concern
    H) Superficial concern
    I) Superficial concern
    J) N/A since Scion is not generally more expensive than Toyota
    K) Superficial concern, also N/A since the FRS is not ugly (at least compared to the FT86-MkII)

    There may be others I haven't seen or thought of, but from that list the only reasons to be upset (over the Toyobaru launching as a Scion) are superficial, with the exception of local dealership experience or location. And that doesn't appear to be the complaint people are making (I might be the only one who mentioned it in this thread).

    Putting it another way, I'm not criticizing people for rebranding their car as IDGAF. The truth is that we all do superficial things now and then. But it's silly to get upset over something like that.
    Wow. Marketing book chapter one: Brand Power.

    It's not superficial to trust a brand if it's worked for you in the past. Purchasing a car is expensive and the customer wants the best return on his/her investiment they can get. Better customer service, different customer experience - these aren't superficial, these are what makes or breaks companies. Why would a company rebrand this car a Scion if there was no difference? Why have different brands in the first place? Brands speak to different customer types. It's obvious Toyota thinks there's a difference or they would have left it branded a Toyota in the US.

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis View Post
    It's not superficial to trust a brand if it's worked for you in the past. {snip} Better customer service, different customer experience - these aren't superficial, these are what makes or breaks companies.
    Agreed, except I'm not sure why you responded with that since it falls under A and B on my list (which I didn't label as superficial).

    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis View Post
    Why would a company rebrand this car a Scion if there was no difference? Why have different brands in the first place?
    Marketing reasons, which are mostly superficial.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis View Post
    Brands speak to different customer types. It's obvious Toyota thinks there's a difference or they would have left it branded a Toyota in the US.
    Agreed, but that was not the argument.

  27. #27
    Hey guys, I'm new here and would like to express my view on making the switch from Toyota (and a luxury brand) to Scion.

    My family has owned all 4 generations of Supra including the MkIV TT, Lexus SC400 (Toyota Soarer in Japan), and I've owned the late model Celica GT-S, MR2 Spyder, MkII MR2 and MR2 Turbo. I was raised die-hard on Toyotas and was looking forward to seeing the FT-86 bring Toyota back into the game. The Toyota snob side of me is disappointed in the FR-S being a Scion.

    I currently drive a G35 coupe. I've taken it apart and the quality of its parts is not up to par (at least on the chassis) as any of my past Toyota 4-bangers. Scion = Toyota in Japan so the Toyota-to-Scion switch would be lateral in terms of build quality. Going from Infiniti to Scion is an obvious downgrade in brand but if the FR-S has a touch-screen GPS, MP3 playback, Bluetooth, USB jacks, AUX port, and leather, and Toyota build quality, that would be an upgrade of features to me. To top it off, Scion pure-pricing is a lure to make that "downgrade" much less painful than buying a Toyota.

    BUT, if Toyota or Subaru sneaks in a variant with a larger engine, turbo or AWD exclusive to their nameplates after the FR-S launches without any forewarning, I will be extremely disappointed and full of buyer's remorse.

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Deslock View Post
    Agreed, except I'm not sure why you responded with that since it falls under A and B on my list (which I didn't label as superficial).
    Sure, but you labeled H & I as superficial - those both effect insurance and resale value. But I guess those things are just superficial
    Quote Originally Posted by Deslock View Post
    Marketing reasons, which are mostly superficial.
    That didn't answer the question. Marketing reasons? Thats like saying that the reason banks fail or succeed is due to "accounting reasons, which are mostly nerdy".

    Quote Originally Posted by Deslock View Post
    Agreed, but that was not the argument.
    Quote:
    There was no argument - apparently you agreed with me.

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by switchlanez View Post
    BUT, if Toyota or Subaru sneaks in a variant with a larger engine, turbo or AWD exclusive to their nameplates after the FR-S launches without any forewarning, I will be extremely disappointed and full of buyer's remorse.
    Welcome! Based on what we've heard so far I don't see a Toyota version in the US, but Scion may say nothing about their turbo version until after the launch of the NA version. Saturn did that with the Sky Redline despite the fact that it was designed around the turbo variant from the beginning(to boost initial NA sales). Subaru will likely turbo or otherwise produce an STI variant. I know it hurts, but you may want to wait to see before purchase if performance is a deal breaker for you.

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis View Post
    Sure, but you labeled H & I as superficial - those both effect (sic) insurance and resale value. But I guess those things are just superficial
    I broke out insurance on its own as item F on my list, and I did not list it as superficial.

    Out of curiosity, how much more will insurance cost for the same driver for a Scion vs an equivalent Toyota vehicle? I'm not doubting you, but again my understanding is that average Scion rates are higher because the average owner is younger and some Scions have poorer crash test ratings. That is what I read, anyway... you obviously have conflicting information.

    Resale is another legitimate concern, so I'll add it as item L:

    L) Brand 1 has better resale than brand 2

    How it applies to the FRS vs FT86:

    L) Unknown, but since the xB and tC both were on top 10 lists for best resale value, I'm not worried about it.
    Last edited by Deslock; 04-25-2011 at 05:07 AM. Reason: typo

 

 

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